Look guys I'm not judging anyone negatively for leasing and if you want to lease that is your business I don't care what you do with your money...

To answer Pav... Yeah if Jeff is only paying $200 bucks a year for his lease then yeah it isn't such a bad investment cause he has only paid $3400 over 17 years so it works out pretty good and he is getting it cheap... But now if he was paying $2000 a year, then I would say that is not a good investment at all... 17 years and he could have bought or at least put a nice down payment on some...

The reason I wouldn't lease is because the cost of a deer (if I harvest one) is going to be pretty expensive and not worth the money in my books...

To bowmadness: Unless you own a business and are leasing a vehicle for business purposes... Then leasing a vehicle is dumb in my opinion... Vehicles depreciate too much to warrant leasing them and you are always making payments....

I agree with you that leasing is dumb. The answer I was looking for is that neither is a good investment, because they are not investments. They are loss leaders in the cost of doing the business of life. I only consider investments as something that makes me money.

When you run the math, my break even on leasing vs. buying is 5 1/2 yrs. I never put money down which slightly increases pmt., but not apples to apples. When the lease is 6 mo. from being up, Ithe dealer is begging for it back, so miles never matter. The vehicle we lease has a very high residual, which is why I lease a luxury suv $100 less a mo. than what I could get a ford explorer for. I also own a business so it makes more sense for me, but still not as good as buying used. The last thing I would do is buy new.

With the land, lets assume 20 acres @ 2k/ acre=40k. Over 15 yrs. you will have 15k in property taxes. So now at 55k. Insurance will have been $7500. If you had to finance it, another $7500 in int., probably more. So now at 70k for that property. So you are now at $4666/deer v. 2k/deer. Likely you won't find ground for less than 3-4k an acre if you can steal it.
So the cost per deer doubles. When I say this, it assumes strictly as a hunting prop. Things can be different if you are going to farm, rent a house on it, or are looking to shelter money to pass on to heirs, etc. the 2k lease would likely get you on 50+ acres conservatively. What am I missing?

The only missing piece, and always a huge question mark, is whether there will be increased value in land over time and over time what the capital gains tax would be. However, if passed on to heirs at death, the capital gains doesn't become an issue. So very complicated!

I will add that some value life experiences over money. To me leasing allows me access to a hunting opportunity (access to 1000s of quality acres in multiple states) that I could never afford with the owning option. It's one of the things I love to do and share with my family. Everyone has different priorities.

If you value how much your portfolio is when you leave this earth or would rather spend your money else where, leasing and many other ventures in life are not a wise decision. JMO

The part you are not considering is the 17 years itself. Something triggered Jeff's desire to lease 17 years ago. If he doesn't lease, where is Jeff going to hunt during that timeframe? What kind of experience is that going to provide? At the end of 17 years, he might have a down payment...but now he gets to spend alot more than $2,000/year until the property is paid for....and then keep paying taxes and insurance after it is paid for.

Don't get me wrong, I still haven't talked myself out of buying. But there is no question that I could lease for the rest of my life and come out money ahead versus buying. Yes, that money is gone and doesn't end up as part of my estate when I die....but I can't take it with me either way.

[/QUOTE]The part you are not considering is the 17 years itself. Something triggered Jeff's desire to lease 17 years ago. If he doesn't lease, where is Jeff going to hunt during that timeframe? What kind of experience is that going to provide? At the end of 17 years, he might have a down payment...

I was thinking this the whole time... Where is he hunting for 17 years? If its public and it sucks, was it worth it to give up 17 years? If the place he's hunting for 17 years is decent... then why buy? Or lease?

1500 Taxes 1600 insurance and I have 88 acres in classified wildlife habitat to lower the taxes that is what it takes to Own 124 acres

Those little tax breaks, government programs, etc. are nice and we all should take advantage of them, but somebody still has to come up with the principle to buy the ground.

The only way you will get a good return on the land anywhere close to helping pay for it will be by clearing and farming it line to line, quarrying it for gravel or limestone. clear cutting the timber (which is a one time deal) or by setting up some type of business on it. If you do any of the above, now you won't have a very good hunting patch.

Not trying to discourage buying hunting ground, but let's be realistic .... it is a luxury many can't afford, much like owning a vacation home, etc.

Unless I hit the lottery, which isnt going to happen 'cause I dont play the crap, I'll never be able to buy the amount of land that I can lease with my buddy.... its a fact I can live with....if I have to I'll go back to state land, but no matter what happens I'll still kill deer....I did quite a bit more than just deer hunt the lease. I enjoyed planting the food plots, keeping trails open, bunny hunting, trapping, turkey hunting, etc.... to me 2-4k a year is worth that esp. if I have full time year round access to the piece of land.... some pay that much for a "guided" hunt and outfitters land that they are on only for a week or so.....I still have access to it, just came from the son's and he said go kill some coyote's....I will, but not until the darn pipeline guys are off of it.....they are still there as of today.....

Yeah pav for $200 a year he is coming out way ahead and I would agree and say that he should keep doing it for as long as he can or wants to...

Not here to say which is better, leasing or buying. I feel to each his own. However, why I choose to buy.
I hunted about 250 acres in Fulton Co. for over 20 years, the land owner never charged me anything to hunt, would also allow me to park a camper and use his electricity for free. I was able to manage this property and the last few years I took some nice bucks there(last one scored 174")and saw many more that was bigger. This was turning into a deer hunters dream place to hunt.
The downside to this was I knew it wasn't my property and this agreement wasn't going to last forever, the owners were getting older and at the time had no interest in selling off part of it or leasing.
I was talking to a friend one day(or should I say)whining about not buying land in southern Indiana 20 years ago when it was much cheaper. He said something that struck home," How much do you think land will be selling for 20 years from now". His statement got me thinking, I have built up this property for someone to take advantage of in the near future. So, what are my options?
I could keep hunting there hoping for the best.
Or I could try to lease another property and hope this doesn't happen again. What I did do was start looking for a property I could afford.
After months of looking I found a property that I liked and could afford, but before I signed the papers I called the property owner in Fulton co. and said I was going to buy a property else where, I would much rather buy some of his. He said that he didn't want to split his property up and that I could hunt there until he passed away. In 2007 I ended up buying 55 acres in Jefferson County, that hadn't been logged, had 20 acres tillable and with very low taxes. This was one of the best decision I ever made. In 2009 the owner in Fulton County called me to say he had decided to sell the farm and offered me the whole farm, I wished I had the money to buy but I didn't and it only took a few days to sell. Now someone else is hunting some really nice bucks.
So my point is, for me I made the decision the control my hunting future not only for me but my kids and grandkids. I can decide if I want to have areas off limits to hunt, put in food plots, or whatever I decide because its mine. I make money off of cash renting the fields that pays taxes and insurance.
And also if everything goes as planned next year I am buying 40 additional acres with a house and barns that connects to my property. This will be the place I retire to.
I found deals are out there, you just have to be willing to put the effort into looking for them and do your homework before you make a offer.
Like I said earlier this was one of the best decisions I have ever made. ( I said "one of" just in case my wife reads this)

One thing to consider that most don't think of. I didn't But now wish I had of, is when you Buy a farm and live on the same place You will never have a place to go and get away from the wife again. I would Buy a farm and have my residence nearby elsewhere if at all possible my wife would agree on this too

I agree with you Throbak, for me I already have a hunting cabin on my property and the new place I am buying has the house. My plan is my wife can move into the cabin during deer season, I will let you guys know how that works out.

That is EXACTLY the reason I continue to search properties for sale and set money aside for that purpose. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but it is probably just a matter of time. Can't seem to talk myself out if it....LOL!

FIVE STAGES OF A HUNTER

Hunters change through the years. Factors used to determine
"successful hunting" change as well for each hunter. A hunter's age,
role models, and his years of hunting experience affect his ideas of
"success."

Many hunters may fit into one of the following five groups. In
1975-1980, groups of over 1,000 hunters in Wisconsin were studied,
surveyed, and written about by Professors Robert Jackson and Robert
Norton, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. The results of their
studies form a widely accepted theory of hunter behavior and
development. Where are you now? Where would you like to be?

SHOOTER STAGE

The hunter talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to
being able to "get shooting." Often the beginning duck hunter will
relate he had an excellent day if he got in a lot of shooting. The
beginning deer hunter will talk about the number of shooting
opportunities. Missing game means little to hunters in this phase. A
beginning hunter wants to pull the trigger and test the capability of
his firearm. A hunter in this stage may be a dangerous hunting
partner.

LIMITING OUT STAGE

A hunter still talks about satisfaction gained from shooting. But what
seems more important is measuring success through the killing of game
and the number of birds or animals shot. Limiting out, or filling a
tag, is the absolute measure. Do not let your desire to limit out be
stronger than the need for safe behavior at all times.

TROPHY STAGE

Satisfaction is described in terms of selectivity of game. A duck
hunter might take only greenheads. A deer hunter looks for one special
deer. A hunter might travel far to find a real trophy animal. Shooting
opportunity and skills become less important.

METHOD STAGE

This hunter has all the special equipment. Hunting has become one of
the most important things in his life. Satisfaction comes from the
method that enables the hunter to take game. Taking game is important,
but second to how it is taken. This hunter will study long and hard
how best to pick a blind site, lay out decoys, and call in
waterfowl. A deer hunter will go one on one with a white-tailed deer,
studying sign, tracking, and the life habits of the deer. Often, the
hunter will handicap himself by hunting only with black powder
firearms or bow and arrow. Bagging game, or limiting, still is
understood as being a necessary part of the hunt during this phase.

SPORTSMAN STAGE

As a hunter ages and after many years of hunting, he "mellows out."
Satisfaction now can be found in the total hunting experience. Being
in the field, enjoying the company of friends and family, and seeing
nature outweigh the need for taking game.

Not all hunters go through all the stages, or go through them in that
particular order. It is also possible for hunters who pursue several
species of game to be in different stages with regard to each
species. Some hunters feel that role models of good sportsmen,
training, or reading books or magazines helped them pass more quickly
through some stages.

I disagree with John Scifres. I do think this to be true, although sometimes the sportsman will be in combinations of stages or the stages my vary by what that persons is hunting. I truly believe at my age I am in the latter. I don't begrudge anyone who is in any one of the other stages what upsets me the most with hunters is the inability to recognize the differences but yet come together for the good of the sport. Why sportsmen continually feud amongst themselves when they are in a minority and need to band together for the good of all boggles my mind. It is so discouraging, to not be on these sites for some period of time and then come back on them only to find the same BS. I had hoped that those on here would rally in opposition against something that is a huge threat to there sport. I would hope they would understand that hunters make up less than 5% of the population and there ability to continue to enjoy their sport is largely contingent on how 80% of the population view them. You have an issue that is in direct conflict of the public game model which has for over a century allow the average man access to game and the sport. You throw the disease in there that can dramatically change both the wildlife population as well as funding for all of the wildlife management and you would think almost everyone for none other than selfish reasons would come together. But no Sportsmen are going to fight over chicken sh*t while the most influential farm lobby both reduces the deer herd, access, threatens wildlife and the sportsmens image amongst those who will decide their fate.

It's depressing to view this and Woody's site.

You said it all DNA............. most people look at only their little acreage...... Most don't look at the bigger picture, INDIANA.

Other sites......... they are what they have always been...........

They are who we thought they were.

Woody has a site?


I'm with ya Doug but it seems like talking to a wall sometimes.... or my wife...its getting harder and harder to not burn out... its sad deal to say the least...

The same things get posted here because it's the same 10 or so people posting. These threads are mostly just for mental masturbation. It feels good to have the bully pulpit, especially for those who are anonymous and less accountable for their "opinions". But in the end all you have is a mess on your hands.

There are plenty of other threads that make this a fun site to visit but the political ones can be frustrating. Don't let it get to you. Ad don't believe for a minute that it is representative.