The days are winding down on season two of proposal 2.0. We will know more once the harvest numbers are released….but it certainly feels like there are a lot more unhappy deer hunters than just a year ago. The ultimate question looms…was 2.0 too much….too fast?

To be honest, my personal experience does not provide a good feel. I have a good situation. I don’t feel guilty about that… because it is not by accident. Unless the state takes this to the next level, and starts infringing on private property rights (which I can’t fathom happening), my situation should remain relatively constant. The one wild card in the equation is trespassing. The farm is already experiencing increased trespassing issues and I fear that will get worse as deer hunting success declines on surrounding properties.

The DNR is once again asking for input. I’m going to skip the process again this year (did the same last year). As mentioned above, whatever path the DNR chooses will have little effect on the farm. If I’m wrong and deer hunting in Indiana gets to the point I don’t enjoy it….there are other places to hunt….been there….done that.

I do, however, have something to get off my chest….that being the difference between proposals 1.0 and 2.0. I’m seeing posts surfacing that are apparent attempts to draw similarities between the two proposals…even though the proposals were night and day different. Comments like “both proposals addressed deer reduction”…or “both proposals included late antlerless firearms seasons” are misleading and intended or not…manipulative to the uninformed. Supporters of 1.0 were accused of being “agenda driven”, but I would offer the feedback provided in support of 2.0 was worse. Many supported 2.0 out of fear of losing firearms opportunity if it didn’t pass. Others used 2.0 as a vehicle to promote crossbow liberalization. Agenda driven? You bet your ***.

Proposal 1.0 was not driven by the DNR, but by lawmakers (happy Dave?). The DNR was being forced to come up with something to prove a deer reduction effort was underway. Findings concluded the ratio of buck harvest to doe harvest needed to be addressed. Changes were proposed to firearms season structures to take some of the focus off antlered deer harvest…..which in turn should have had a positive effect on the harvest ratio. The point being, we didn’t necessarily need to kill more deer to take the legislative pressure off….just different deer. Basically, that was 1.0 in a nutshell.

Due to the outcry from the non-agenda driven folks (yeah right)….it was back to the drawing board for the DNR. This time tasked to come up with something different…and by the way…don’t touch gun season. How’s that for a set of handcuffs? Next up….2.0…..an aggressive deer killing proposal if there ever was one. Compared to 1.0….the second proposal increased general firearm/ML opportunity by roughly 40% (I used 28/40 to get there. I can’t recall the final 1.0 number, but 28 is close, the 2.0 number was 43 this year, but varies annually). In addition to that, 2.0 added roughly two full months of crossbow pressure that had never existed. By adding more potential focus on antlered deer (instead of less, 1.0)….it required very aggressive measures to address that antlerless harvest ratio mentioned earlier. It is what it is….and is nothing remotely comparable to 1.0. To be clear, I’m not certain 1.0 would have produced the desired results? Just pointing out it was a much less aggressive approach.

I apologize for the long post, but it will be my last…at least for awhile. I’ve accepted that I’m a minority here….and I just don’t have the patience or the energy any more. A big part of it likely stems from the fact I was intimately involved with the DNR regarding deer management for quite some time. Back then, decisions were made by people sitting down at a table and hashing out the issues. It wasn’t always a bed of roses…but it was a far cry better than deer management based on who can submit the most emails.

Good Post .... as for those that pushed the crossbow crap...they need a good kick in the nads .....multiple times......

So much for 2.0 being a watered down proposal and not going to work!!!

The Deer herds all over the Midwest are down!!!

Just out of curiosity, why?...


Alot of people made a big deal and hoopla about crossbows for really no good reason (other then they didn't want other hunters in the woods because they may shoot "their buck")... Crossbows only had 6% harvest for 2012/2013 season... Hardly made a dent in the total harvest...

Much ado about nothing IMO...

Let's get a few facts straight.....

1. 1.0 and 2.0 both included the late antler less season.

2. The main difference in the deer harvest data from 2011 and 2012 (the first year of the late antlerless season) is the late antler less season totals (10,000). So it's not surprising total harvest numbers were up last year.....

Which leads us to our next fact(s).

3. THE ORIGINAL GOAL OF BOTH PROPOSALS WAS HERD REDUCTION. And as has been pointed out this isn't just an Indiana thing...This is a goal set by many states throughout the country.

4. If necessary, the DNR can reduce bonus antler less permits (as they did in 20 counties for the 2012/2013 season). Not only that, (and a point I had forgotten) is that the DNR can lower the bonus antler less quotas to 3 or less, thus effectively putting an end to the late antlerless season, without changing any regs. So there are tools in place to protect the herd from dropping too low.

Contact the DNR and others involved in the process and voice your concerns. That's what I've done and will continue to do and the DNR makes it easy. Over the last few years I've been very happy with the responses I've received when I contacted the powers that be.

And while some would have us believe otherwise, I hardly think any hunter in this state, nor the DNR wants to wipe out the deer herd. Deer hunting is the cash cow that drives the financial bus and provides all of us with enjoyment.

And while I think we are going to have to get used to seeing fewer deer, I think the quality of deer will continue to rise.

And ultimately, that's the goal.........

Paul, yes, I'm happy. JJAS, I will simply say that any deer is a "quality" deer in my opinion, or at least should be considered such by any hunter in the field. Jeff, I don't think for one minute the crossbow is the culprit of any of this herd reduction issue. In fact, considering the many smiling faces of youth from this year in archery, I'd say crossbow was a huge success and since the real big picture is not about deer numbers or size of bucks but instead how do we assure the youth of today somehow get engaged for the benefit of the future.

2013 and the new rules aren't really the issue that caused this situation. 2013 is merely an outcome of years of harvesting, liberalization of the deer bonus tags and lack of sportsmen giving a crap and engaging about the overall deer herd because they had plenty of resource to shoot at. Now, the current season structure and liberal tags becomes the issue of the future. To start with reducing season lengths, while admirable, is ridiculous because it immediately brings in the gun vs bow issue. The first and foremost issue should be tags, tags, tags. Secondly, it should also an issue of worrying about the other guy, which of course will never happen unfortunately because in general sportsmenship in deer hunting is largely dead. Eventually, season length (all seasons) should also be addressed but again, it is not the season length that is the issue but instead the ability to harvest numerous does. Any argument of gun vs. bow vs. crossbow is totally without merit because all can be maintained as is if doe harvest numbers are reduced dramatically via available tags.

And yes Paul, the process years ago when there were a few representing the groups at the table was a better process in my opinion, if not a good overall representative situation. But back then I will suggest there was less "me" in the equation although the bow vs gun issue was always a shadow in the room that had to be dealt with. But when things are good and resource is plentiful and everyone is getting more, it's easy for a process to work well. Today is a different day for sure.

Delaney,

By quality, I mean a well balanced, healthy herd.

And ultimately, I think that's the goal.

JJJAS, agreed.

In 2011 the muzzleloader season accounted for 15% of the harvest, a total of 19,000 deer. In 2012, the muzzleloader and late antlerless season accounted for 16% of the harvest, a total of 22,000 deer. A pretty good argument can be made that most of the 10,000 deer killed in the late antlerless season in 2012 were simply shifted from muzzleloader season.

More than 7,000 fewer deer were killed in the 2012 muzzleloader season as compared with the 2011 season.

There were nearly 10,000 more deer killed with "archery" equipment in 2012. About 7,400 of those can likely be attributed to the increased use of crossbows. The total increase from 2011 to 2012 was 7,000.

Until the harvest stats are out, we are all just guessing as to the effects on the current season. And we are certainly guessing as to what might have happened with the other options for season structure.

Personally, I saw about the same number of deer in Parke and Morgan counties and more in Jackson county. However, my family killed 4 deer this year v. 5 last year. So I guess the population is down 20%

Byran, that has been "discussed" multiple times on here....they aint vertical....simply put......to put it a nut shell....I'm a BOWhunter first and foremost....if I wanted to hunt with something that has a stock, monte carlo cheek piece and a 3-9 scope...I'll pick up my slug gun or ML.... I'm done with the crossgun rant....

and as for a "healthy herd".... at what cost to the herd and hunters and what deer herd level's ?? beside the 25% reduction levels that has been mentioned.....

got to go to work and get ready for the "blizzard" and negative zero temps...ya all have fun and play nice..... carry on ....

You can only kill one buck so what makes the difference what season or weapon you use?

The DNR can control the herd size and health with anterless bonus tags. If you think there are less deer then lobby the DNR to decrease the county doe limit. h.h.

So you want to kick people in the nads repeatedly because you don't like a crossbows?... Don't like em, then don't use them... But using the threat of violence against fellow hunters makes your case against them weak and childish... 6% harvest for last year just tells me that crossbows are not that much of a factor that you guys make it out to be... How many times this year or last year did you go out during bow season and saw someone using a crossbow?

You call yourself a BOWhunter first and foremost... Alright, I respect that and also anyone else who has that feeling.... However, I am a HUNTER first and foremost... A bow is just a tool just like a gun...

+1

Spot on Delany, especially about kids and crossbows...

Hunters are their own worst enemy... Sad that some can't see past their own prejudice and think they may never be part of the problem and that everyone else is...

x2

And, the DNR can reduce those county bonus antlerless permits without going through another rule-making process. Any county that they reduce the number of antlerless permits to 3 or less automatically loses their Special Late Antlerless Season. No long, involved, hassle of a rule change needed.

Bingo.

I fought like crazy to keep the things out of archery seasons ... youth and handicapped were fine... I remember the IBA fighting against them as most state archery organizations did and many "deer" hunting organizations... the lobbying for them won out, in other words...MONEY....still dosnt mean I like 'em in archery....they should still be in the gun seasons IMO.... if YOU dont like that I dont like 'em....I'll still sleep good tonight....

Well I don't care what you like or don't like that is your prerogative cause it doesn't bother me any and I do hope you get a good nights sleep... I hope everyone sleeps good at night...

Still didn't answer my question though... Since they have been legalized in archery season, have you seen anyone using one?

But like I said earlier 6% harvest tells me that most hunters still are not using crossbows and they are really a non factor... Kind of reminds me of when handguns were allowed in State Parks... The anti-gun community whined and cried about "wildwest shootouts" and the parks will "run red with blood" turned to be not true and much ado about nothing...

I remember reading where the IBA also complained and fought tooth and nail when the compound bow first came on the scene saying "it was going to ruin archery hunting"... Turned out to be not true and the best thing that could have happened for them because most hunters went to using them... Otherwise the organization would have faded away along time ago...

I don't own a crossbow and don't plan on buying one in the foreseeable future, but, I do know that I am not getting any younger and that one day I may not be able to pull back my bow and may have to switch to due aging and I will be thankful that crossbows were legal so that I can get out and still hunt in October... And I'm pretty sure the people that don't like them today will be thankful too...

"For wildlife managers trying to kill as many deer as possible, crossbows have become a necessary tool.”

-Dave Risley, Executive Administrator for Wildlife Management and Research, Ohio DNR

My brother and I have been deer hunting ever since there have been deer in Indiana. We always bad mouthed crossbows and fought to keep them out of archery season. In 2006 my brother got hurt in an accident and lost one of his legs and mangeled the other one. He was confined to a wheel chair for the rest of his life. It took him about a year to heal up, then he got a handicaped minnivan and was ready to deer hunt again. One of our hunting spots had a lane going through it and he would park in the lane, open both side doors and hunt. The first year he hunted with a ML, but he wanted to bow hunt. In 2008 I bought him the best crossbow I could find a 10 Point Pro Fusion with all the bells and whistles. When I gave it to him he laughed and said "I didn't think we would ever hunt with one of these things". He managed to shoot a couple of deer with it. In 2010 he passed away and I got the crossbow back. Then the DNR made it legal for everyone to hunt with one. I'm 64 years old and had just about given up on climbing trees and bow hunting. This year I changed my hunting style and hunted more out of ground blinds with the crossbow. Its not the same, but I'm still out there hunting. I'm pretty hard headed, but now I realize there is a place for the crossbow

Statistically speaking, a 6% impact is pretty significant. Not saying good or bad, but certainly significant. It can't be downplayed.

Yes...I have seen them in use...the guy that normally was a gun hunter that hunts across the creek next to me.....normally he would only have hunted the gun/ml seasons...now he is out in archery/urban...ok, his right to do so...even though I would rather see him with archery gear....he had killed two does with it that crossed the creek that came off of my lease...that is two does I 'prolly passed that he killed. I'm sure this happens in many areas of the state....with many different weapons....but, isnt the idea to try to save does in areas where the numbers have plummeted? There are BOWhunters that dont like guns....there are gun hunters that dont like bows....I believe they(crossbows) are a tool and an effective one, but dont tell me they are the same as a bow....they are way to easy for joe blow to use....we could go on for ever on this..I'm done with the crossbow crap....lets concentrate on the DNR/the loss of deer mumbers and educating people that deer are not a endless commodity even though they are a renewable resource....now there is a conundrum....

Per Jeff V: "lets concentrate on the DNR/the loss of deer mumbers and educating people that deer are not a endless commodity even though they are a renewable resource....now there is a conundrum...."

This is what it should all be about, not necessarily season lengths, weapons or otherwise.

I agree as we all have a vested interest in the resource.

Having said that, I still want to see the data from this season (and next), where the numbers are headed (when comparing this seasons data to last seasons data), the DNR's response (to this seasons harvest numbers) and what happens with bonus antlerless quota numbers on a per county basis based on harvest numbers from the last two seasons.

Don't forget about depredation permits! They are another game changer.......I know from experience! Nothing like a neighbor bragging about a big buck they shot before bow season with a firearm.......makes me sick!

+ EHD & other diseases

What other diseases.......bro?

Herpes? Lol

one of those guys :rolleyes:

•Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (EHD)
•Deer Fibroma
•Chronic Wasting Diseases(CWD)
•Deer Nasal Bots
•Lyme Disease

Learned from the best!

As someone who has lost a brother also I am very sorry about the loss of yours... But I do want to thank you for proving my point about crossbows...

You're right but it hasn't been the slaughter that some made it out to be either...

Comparing crossbow use before they were allowed and after the fact yes it was a huge increase, but, included in overall harvest, its not all that much...

I'm going to echo Delany's sentiments and add to it and say he is right that it isn't so much the seasons or weapons but the lack of hunter education and self entitlement...

I've been reading this site long before I started posting and I've noticed that same people who consistently complain every year the most about not seeing deer everytime they go out shoot multiple deer a then complain when their neighbors and everyone else does it too... All I can say is don't shoot multiple deer then complain about others doing it or not seeing deer because that is biggest problem I see with the herd being decimated like it has because everybody thinks everyone else is the problem and not themselves...

My buddy saw 8 deer the other night and one was the doe that I let walk one the fourth day of gun season and she had her fawn with her... I can't begin to say how excited I was to hear that because now we might have up to four more deer added to the herd in the area...

Another issue that is not reported and I think the DNR should make it mandatory to report and that is deer that were shot and lost... This is my major issue with bow hunting and why I am not a major proponent of it... It seems every year guys post on her that they shot multiple deer and for whatever reason couldn't recover it... One poster posted that he shot three or four bucks and lost all but one and another shot 6 deer and only recovered four of them... That is another major issue with our herd being decimated, the lack of responsibility when hunting.... I understand things can happen but doesn't mean one should go out and continue shooting deer every chance they get...

If you set a goal of 2 deer for the year and shoot and injure one can't recover it for whatever reason, then you should only shoot one more deer and not hurt future seasons for yourself...

Jeff V pointed out that his neighbor shot two does with his crossbow and that he preferred he would have done it with a bow... To me this makes no sense because two dead does is two dead does regardless of the means to take them... I would have been more happy if would have let them walk or just taken one instead...

Guys we have a responsibility to manage our herd responsibly and we need to take a good long look at ourselves and change are own habits and if everyone would do that, then our herd will be better off...

Dangit!!! about spit coffee all over my keyboard!!!!

Problem is people aren't going to change their habits. Some will shoot as many as they are legally allowed. It will take a rule change. Need to reduce the bag limit big time in many areas.

Wow...

Some of us might not take that well, even once... Originally posted by Jeff Valovich:
Good Post .... as for those that pushed the crossbow crap...they need a good kick in the nads .....multiple times......

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you guys are having a problem with. I had a better season this year than many of my hunting buddy's. This is in a county that doesn't have a late antlerless firearms seasons. So if you are complaining about not having deer out there to hunt getting rid of the crossbows is not going to do a thing being they only account for about 2%(previous stated)of the bow take. I think the real problem is the owners of the private property are setting up deer sanctuaries so the deer have no reason to come to public land or other private property. I think this is due to the high price of hunting leases is luring property owners to chase the hunting dollar instead of farming their property. Just my 2 cents worth!

"I would rather see him with archery gear"!!! Are you kidding me?!?!? I hope it was ME that you saw! I dare you tell me to my face "what you'd RATHER me hunt with!" I'll tell you I'd "rather" you move out of my "wheelhouse" before I break my hand on your face. If you don't like something fine. Don't tell anyone what they "should" do unless they ask or are on your property!

This argument is what is wrong with hunting! I've shot deer with every legal weapon type in Indiana. I am a DEER hunter. You Monday morning quarterbacks and wanna be biologist think you know more than anyone about anything! YOUR way is not the ONLY way! Your opinion is fine but don't be so arrogant to think Everyone else is for it.