:rolleyes:

Bingo!

It is amazing how many bucks show up during the rut. We might only get one photo of these nomads...but it is really cool to see.

That comment is exactly why I believe the point you are attempting to make is a farse.....because the chances of patterning a mature buck in such situations (after the velvet comes off) is much more fantasy than fact. I won't say never, but I would say EXTREMELY RARE.

I filter through thousands...read that again...thousands...of trail cam photos on a WEEKLY basis during the summer months...when mature bucks are most patternable. Over the course of an entire summer, I might get a couple dozen shots of mature bucks...with many of those being one offs. The vast majority of mature buck photos, just like the photos over scrapes during the rut...are taken at night.

If you would actually get out and try patterning a mature buck using a trail camera...during hunting season...it would not take long for you to understand how laughable your assumptions/accusations really are.

Back on point...

I have to say, the HPR issue still raises some safety concerns for me. It is difficult to voice those concerns without sounding like an anti...and I hate that.

Again, my knowledge of ballistics is lacking for certain. But I am aware that it doesn't take sniper level shooting skills to kill a big game animal at a 1/4 mile with the right setup. The fact longer shots will be taken...and the bullets that miss have the potential of traveling long distances...is concerning.

From the actual hunting perspective, I believe legalizing long range weapons is taking a step backwards in an already deteriorating sport. Is the guy that sets up on a field edge or power line with a weapon that allows him to reach out 1/2 mile or more (1/4 mile+ each direction) really hunting? I can only answer that for myself...and the answer is no....not even close.

That said, we live/hunt in an "opportunity" driven state, so my vote is probably moot.

I can appreciate the placement of your last sentence....but it doesn't really address the overall use of game cameras by hunters and the point I'm trying to make.

Regardless...I was reading Indiana Outdoor news yesterday and came across this. It's a quote from professional hunter Ralph Cianciarulo.

"Opening day is always a hunter's best chance for success and our game cameras are the single most helpful scouting tool we have for patterning mature bucks and breeding-age does during the critical days and weeks before hunting begins."

Also...I notice you didn't use the second "scenario" I posted in your reply, which addresses not only camera use, but "real time" camera use during the season.

"Or if you had a real time camera and you are either headed to, or already sitting in a stand and your phone rang with a image of a buck headed to a spot you thought you could get to before he might. You wouldn't use that info to try and move on that deer?"

A situation very similar to this was posted on this forum last year by a member and I believe he killed the buck.

Finally, it's obvious we've reached an impasse, and perhaps it better to just agree to disagree and move on.

Best of luck to you this season.

I didn't respond to the real time camera scenario because I don't own one...nor do I know anyone that does. My gut says you are inflating the advantage potential of such equipment...at least for short range weapons.

Ralph is a salesman. He's paid to say trail cameras = big buck$.



Yes, time to move on. I need to check my trail cameras anyway!

pav Enjoy....

I fully support high-powered rifles for deer. Here's a little info about myself:

1. I'd rather hunt with a bow than a firearm. If Indiana outlawed all firearm hunting, my life would go on. But, I switch to a firearm during firearms season, since the deer are a lot more pressured.

2. I do not hunt food plots, nor crop fields.

3. I use two trail cameras in August and September to inventory deer, then pull them before season begins.

4. When this high-powered rifle issue passes, I'll be using a 300 AAC Blackout with subsonic ammunition and sound suppressor. This means that 100 yards would be the very maximum I would be able to shoot, since my muzzle velocity would be around 1000 FPS. So, range has nothing to do with my choice to hunt with a HPR.

Under this current proposal this .308 will be legal complete with 20 round magazine:



Add one of those Mag-pul stocks and you basically have a full auto.

Jack:

What is wrong with a 20 round mag? one shot one kill, it really doesn't matter what you have a "spare". And when you add Mag Pul stocks you don't have full auto, you have a "bump fire". You can do the same thing with a Mossburg pump slug gun, just hold the trigger back as you pump the gun IT WILL GO OFF.

ATF rules that the configuration you speak of IS NOT full auto. You have to play/manipulate parts inside the trigger to get to full auto.

Fully auto will mean each person owning that rifle will need a tax stamp......$200.00 and at least six month waiting period, not going to be an issue.

Think of the old cowboy rifles that will now be legal...... a bunch of black powder rounds we have not been able to use!

Bunch of fear over nothing, we just evened the playing field..........lol. .308 pistol has been legal for years, I've seen what it can do to deer at over 100 yards.

1. Slide Fire stocks are not made by Magpul.

2. Slide Fire stocks are a joke.

3. Even real full-auto "sprays" bullets everywhere, with huge gaps between bullets, so an untrained shooter would be lucky to hit crap after the first shot. It was devised for multiple troops to fire at the same time, creating a large field of fire to fill in the gaps. Muzzle climb makes it that much more difficult.

4. There are various calibers that are already legal for deer in an AR-15 rifle, so if Slide Fire stocks were a problem, we'd already be seeing it.

5. I have owned a registered, full-auto M16 for over 10 years now. You are more than welcome to come to my home, where I will place a foam deer target at 50 yards for you to try to hit on full-auto. You might be surprised to find that you'd be lucky to hit it even once.

If you're going to hunt with a rifle, leave the military toys at home and hunt with a "real hunting rifle". I don't want to share a hunting camp with someone toting an AR-15 or AK-47.

It would kind of give me the "creeps" to pick up my partner to go hunting and see him loading an AR type rifle in the truck. Wouldn't let someone hunt my farm that carried one either. Bet I'm not the only one that feels this way.

Let's not go there boys. There is way too much "assault rifle" emotion to muddy the waters of this proposal. It will only lead to ugliness.

Welcome to the forum Jim Zumbo ... :rolleyes:

I'm not anti AR, in fact own several of them for playing around and plinking, just don't consider them a good selection for a hunting weapon.

Like it or not a certain segment of society views them negatively. Kind of like the dudes that pull up in their camo jacked up 4wd truck, all decked out in camo and face paint, trying to get hunting permission from good old mister conservative farmer. It portrays an image that isn't the best for hunters and sportsmen.

What's the difference between walking into camp or the woods with an AR-15 in legal caliber (300 or 458, etc) versus walking in with a Remington 750 in .308? Nothing, they just look different. Both semi automatic, both come standard with all black synthetic stocks. I've always wanted an excuse to build an AR-10, looks like next season might give me that incentive.

Like it or not, AR-15 rifles are already legal for deer hunting in the appropriate calibers. I hunted with one for probably the first five years that PCR's were legal.

I've got a rather simple question for you: What non-cosmetic differences are there in these two rifles?


Ruger SR-556


Ruger Ranch Rifle


How about these two?


Ruger SR-22


Ruger 10/22


As for someone showing up in camo to ask a farmer for hunting permission: If I were a farmer, I'd more than likely choose the hunter type over some guy who showed up in a business suit and tie looking like he was lucky to know which end of a rifle to shoulder. Of course, one should show up clean and respectful, but I don't care about their attire selections.

Perhaps if more people would field "black rifles", the general public might realize their legitimate sporting usages and accept them. I'm sure that there are a few guys out there that feel ostracized by their ownership of such firearms, but hopefully they'll overcome that soon enough. AR-15's would excel in the hunting world due to their versatility and modularity. They are more impervious to foul weather than their wooden contemporaries, and simple enough for someone with very minimal training to work on the internal components.

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AtKusv4mwgVjKZu0a6BX50abvZx4?p=bump+fire+stocks&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-901&fp=1

Have you ever bump-fired a semi-auto? You can certainly do so for free -- without forking over the cash for some gimmick stock. All you need to do is let the rifle's recoil bounce your finger on the trigger. Heck, here are a couple of videos of different people bumpfiring UNMODIFIED 10/22 rifles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk1uxD1DtXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4IvDZ2dShc

You still have to learn proper bumpfiring techniques to use one of those stocks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_fire

From the above link:

No Kidding :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm is the "black rifle" a segrigation thing?

The projectile has NO idea what it was fired from ..

You folks were all for the crossbow, now you have the extend of that in a firearm. Hunt on and kill them at will............

I am going to kill a deer at long range as soon as this passes............ 500+ yards is not a problem, just need a shooting stick and a target............

wow......

jjas:

As I posted before the door was first opened by the pistol, then pcr and finally the crossbow. My son and I were deer hunting several years ago, he had his Striker pistol in .308 and I was carrying a muzzleloader. We came to and open feild with a doe feeding in it, she looked up the continued to feed. My son set up his bipod shooting sticks and sat down resting his pistol on the sticks, no reaction from the doe. Gun went boom and deer flopped! The shot was over 300 yards, I know because the field is 525 yards long and she was at the far end. She didn't care what was used, she was "dead right there"(DRT). Now we have the "opportunity" (you folks like that word) to allow everyone the same "opportunity". When the pistol rules came about I was told "very few people have the money to spend on the wildcat pistols". Seems to me rules were being made for the wealthy....

And to your issue with trail cameras, I would say the camera has saved more bucks than it has killed. When people SEE what is in their area they can hold out for a certain deer. Before the camera they shot what was in front of them. Today MANY go home with an empty tag. As with what Pav said, you can get pictures of a buck but putting in front of you to kill is a different matter. I might get to hunt 12 hours per day, my camera is on 24/7

"And to your issue with trail cameras, I would say the camera has saved more bucks than it has killed. When people SEE what is in their area they can hold out for a certain deer. Before the camera they shot what was in front of them. Today MANY go home with an empty tag. As with what Pav said, you can get pictures of a buck but putting in front of you to kill is a different matter. I might get to hunt 12 hours per day, my camera is on 24/7"

True statement for me. I like to know what is around and for the past 2 seasons did not punch a tag, although I passed up decent bucks.

Cameras to me is like fishing with a topo or even fish finder. I can find the areas that hold fish and maybe even locate them w/ my Garmin but that does not mean I can put them in the cooler. Gives me an idea of what is there in the area BUT I still have to work for catching them.

All of the above from wow?.....Well, since you responded....


I don't dispute that cameras have saved many a deer's life. People tend to put them in and then check them over and over and over. It doesn't take long for the deer (especially mature deer) to respond negatively to the pressure.

But used correctly, they provide information that can help hunters find and pattern the deer on their property. Without cameras, there are many deer you likely wouldn't know existed. But...even if you had laid eyes on every deer in your woods (through hunting and more traditional scouting techniques), you still wouldn't have a clue as to the when/where/how that running cameras 24/7 can help provide. To me, that is a big advantage. My guess is that "SURPRISE" you won't agree...

My main concern with cameras would be with the newer "real time" cameras. They not only can put you on deer in "real time" that information can also help you kill them in "real time" (as was illustrated by a member of this very forum last fall). And like P&Y, I have fair chase concerns about that.

Now onto the rifle proposal.....

jbwhttail First...here's myth number one of Chad Stewart's 10 common myths of deer management....and it addresses opportunity.

Myth 1: The DNR manages deer for deer hunters only.

Indiana law mandates that the DNR manage
deer and all wildlife for everyone in Indiana.
The goal of the white-tailed deer management
and research program is to maximize hunting
and viewing opportunities while maintaining
a deer population at a level consistent with
ecological, social, and economic values of all
Indiana citizens.


Finally...We've had use of pistols chambered in the rounds included in the proposal for years, and if was/is okay for your son to had/have the opportunity to use a pistol chambered in .308 to kill a deer, why should it be a problem for someone else to have the opportunity to use a rifle chambered in the same round?

Pass the POPCORN...... :rolleyes:

needs butter, hard to swallow

That's what she said.... Hahaha sorry when it's sitting up on a tee like that I gotta take a swing!!! Still a 15 yr old inside at times.

so what do you guys think, .243 or .308?? maybe a .270? Which caliber is best??

One of each, would be my recommendation.
Can't have too many guns.

Seriously 76, a 338 Win Mag would be my choice. DRT.

I really think they should start with a 223 though. What about the women and children? Be much easier for them to control. They do it in Texas.

223 I've done with a handload in TN. Didn't choose it due to lack of rifle options either - I have a great 300 and 30-30 etc etc.... just did it cause I wanted to. Was a good opportunity.

Will be real interesting to see if it passes. You guys seem to think its a forgone conclusion. My opinion is I have no idea - its politics so who knows

If it passes I will be in the market for a .25-06. I saw an article a couple years ago about the quarter bore being the most effective in a study.

We all said this was coming years ago when they were trying to get the PCRs legalized... but everyone said "no... we don't want HPR... we will settle for PCR... We just want to take our kids hunting... THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!"

If (when) they legalize HPR... I would like to see a 2 day gun season towards the end of November...

I am sure that if they do legalize it... that I will more than likely own one... just because I don't want to be at a disadvantage!!!

I have lately thought about jumping on the PCR bandwagon... but it is hard to justify purchasing one when my shotgun & ML have more range... but the lower recoil would be nice if I wanted to take my daughter out!!!

25/06 is a great choice for longer shots. Got a buddy who swears by 6.5 Swede. And another loves the 30/30. So many choices. Got to pass first though. Otherwise I'll be stuck with my 357 max in gun season. You know i think I'll likely just stick with it either way!

how does the .25-06 compare to the .243 in terms of ballistics?

I need something relatively flat out to 400 yds or so. Would be both a coyote and deer gun

Seriously ..... What do you think the odds are that this gets approved? If so, when do you think it would go into effect?