Give me 10 reasons (or more) why high fence "canned hunts" are bad for Indiana.... Moral/ethical and science please....I want to use them in my argument against the high fence clown boys....

Jeff and others,

Please don't take this the wrong way as I am trying to develop my own thoughts on this issue. But I find it interesting that a conservative (as inferred from your tagline) is so opposed to something that is pretty clearly a property rights issue. Is this more a fair-chase, ethical issue or is it a control of the negative externalities (in other words disease) of this industry? I think I need to decide before I attempt to form an argument against it.

John, I'm a man of contradictions .....

1. I don't buy into the property rights thing much because that in itself is merely a social attitude in my opinion. Heck, there is a lot of things that a property owner can't do so my opinion of this being a property owner rights issue is that it's not.

2. The disease issue is huge in my opinion and it puts significant risk to an Indiana resource

3. The potential cost of clean up if disease is found should be entirely on the operators and the state of Indiana shouldn't pay a dime in any manner to replace animals or property and operators should have to post significant liability insurance to cover themselves and the state.

4. If these animals are to be considered "farmed" then they need to be tagged so as to monitor them for the disease issue.

5. If not considered a farmed animal, then the entire operation and land should be taxed at business rates.

6. I am very much against the privatization of wildlife and most of these operators continue to suggest that these captive deer are "wildlife".

7. Any deer harvested in Indiana for sport purposes should be under the direction of the DNR as to the rules and regulations, which these operators do not wish to do.

8. I'm not in favor of penned hunting or training whereas the animal or birds are unable to escape the property. In essence, I believe every aspect of wildlife should be fair chase.

Just my way of thinking. And still, in my opinion, this issue could have been dealt with years ago if there had been a push to engage the non hunting public but everyone was afraid of doing so.

I have no issue with it. No different that put and take pheasant hunts or pay pond fishing in my mind.

How about an argument that deer (and other cervids) are neither fish nor fowl? They are "higher level" animals. They are mammals. That fact could possibly be used as a demarcation of what animals should not be allowed to be raised to hunt on private "shooting" and training preserves behind high fences. Just a thought.

Because YOU and I, as sportsmen, will pay for the mess they create when one gets out! You didn't read that the DNR had to foot 1/2 the bill ($10,000) on the last one? All because BOA said THEY didn't have the money.

What if a bond was required for contingencies? Or some other financial assurance. That's what is required for waste management sites and some in the chemical industry. Could we come up with a permit fee that could fund inspections for compliance with stringent regulations? That's standard stuff in the environmental compliance biz.

I still haven't come to grips with the fair chase issues. I know I don't agree with the higher level animal stuff. That is a slippery slope and begins the sentience argument so prevalent in the anti-hunting and animal rights groups. And they certainly aren't a higher level than cattle or pigs. I really can't see any defensible position there.

We could very easily paint ourselves into a corner here.

John, you make some good points, especially about bonding.

Regarding the deer (and other wild cervids) I would also note that they have been, and I believe still are, regarded as wild animals by the large majority of Americans. On the other hand, cattle and pigs have been “domesticated” and raised as private livestock for centuries all around the world. I believe that most people would prefer that deer remain “wild.” JMHO.

The number one reason is the inevitable threat of cwd being introduced into the wild herd..

Number two is it should not be called hunting..its killing! These places have a density as high as one deer per acre! They are fed, use to human activity and geneticly altered... it also paints a very bad picture of REAL hunters who put in the time and hard work... fair chase is hunting. There should be a a law passed that these places can't use the word hunting in any of their advertising!.. I wonder why P&C or BC or the safari club do not recognize this bastardized way of taking a so called trophy!

But I'm old school.

Fair chase is the only way to "hunt". Once u step into a high fence environment ur no longer a hunter and I have zero respect for u. U gotta be a low life piece of shat to do that and I'd just assume that u were now the prey.. Whew that's harsh

Many here annually hunt behind fences in Texas.
But that's different I hear.

And over bait.....

I hunt Texas every year.. fair chase....show me 10,000 acre fenced killing pen here in Indiana!

I think the House bill addresses the canned hunt, ie releasing a specific animal in a small enclosure. I don't think the SB does as well.

Let me make it clear that I wholly agree that this is not hunting. It is shameful. But many fools have no shame.

To be candid I haven't researched this much at all and to preface I'm not pro enclosure hunting. But what seems to be the #1 thing people mention is CWD.

My question is aren't people already "farming" deer here in Indiana? What is the difference in regards to CWD if people are already allowed to raise numbers of deer in captivity?

"Terlep sees the change as an effort by the older generation to "lock in" their views through the future."

I copied this quote from an article today about how political analysts feel that the current Indiana politicians are trying to tie the hands of the younger generations by putting may social changes/issues in the constitution (which I believe is wrong and is what I call "old white man syndrome"). Except for the disease issue, I sometimes believe that guys my age (60.5) try to hold on to the idealisms of the past and force them on the younger generations, and this may be one of them. Frankly, in regard to these situations, maybe the old guys should yield to the young folks who are the future and let them decide. I'm not for these fenced operations, but maybe I'm just an old white guy that believes he is smarter then the youth.

The difference between actual "deer farming" and put and take shooting pens is the amount of cervid traffic it requires to keep the pens stocked. Since there is no reliable CWD test for live animals...CWD could arrive in the back of a truck at any time.

It doesn't just affect what is in the pen either. Escapes are quite common...and environmental contamination in the form of runoff is guaranteed. Once Pandora's box is open, there will be no closing it.

This is a very good point.

If Indiana had fenced enclosures that were measured in square miles rather than a few square acres....which were capable of sustaining a resident deer herds (every animal is born and dies there)...rather than having to continuously re-stock with farm raised animals....this would be a totally different debate IMO.

Big Oaks is the closest thing Indiana offers to some of the big Texas...and even South Africa ranches. I see a huge difference between Big Oaks and a fifty acre shooting pen stocked with farm raised animals.

I don't care who fences what? There is no magical "size" that separates a shooting pen from a fenced piece of property. It comes down to how the fence is being used in my book.

If the enclosure is large enough for the habitat within to sustain a resident wild herd (food, water and cover)...and that is how it is being utilized...then I would not consider it to be a "shooting pen".

I'm not aware of any such enclosures in Indiana.

What I realize is the fact these facilities are a drop in the bucket of a "billion dollar industry"....and people...especially other hunters...using the existence of such facilities to portray trophy hunting as a negative really ticks me off.

The most knowledgable, hardest working deer hunters I know are trophy hunters. I doubt there is a deer hunter alive that has not killed a trophy buck on purpose. Many just never get a chance...and that is likely their own fault. Some of those people choose to downplay trophy hunting like it is a form of cancer....others from that same group... become clients of shooting pens.

Pav,

is there any data on deer farm 'escapes' and ecological consequences from our neighboring states?

I know areas in Holmes county Ohio where deer farming (largely done by amish) is commonplace.

Based on my beliefs that if I own it, I should be able to use it the way I want to... to make money such as leasing it to hunters, farming it, raising animals on it... it should not be illegal. And since nobody wants to step out and say how big the enclosure has to be before it becomes ethical to hunt it, I guess we have some more work to do?

I like PAV's idea that they must be able to sustain life on their own and not be trucked in constantly... at least until there IS a reliable test for CWD. But gosh this really is a slippery slope. There are all kinds of farms out there running unspeakable operations and nobody cares about that. We may find out down the road that pen raised pheasants have diseases that transfer to wild birds.

This ^^^ x 10....... CWD will enter this state at night in horse trailer!!!......

This video covers some of the issues with penned "deer hunting":

http://vimeo.com/5680646

.

Again, not trying to be difficult but the same can be said of the deer farms. A lot of the ones I've seen are constantly bringing in deer to improve genetics. And escapees/cwd would seem just as likely there. Just seems like if all in against one you should be against the other too, at least if the argument is tied to cwd.

If the argument is against shooting fish in a barrel then I get that.

Right now the out flow is greater then the in flow ...once the supply can't meet the demand or prices the the Great in flow then starts.With Indiana being a CWD "free" I sure there great demand for Deer coming from here!!

But your correct Cody two wrongs never make a right!!

Currently deer coming to Indiana have to come from CWD free state!!!

It only takes one person cutting a corner to meet the demand and then "CWD " inters Indiana in the dark in a horse trailer!!!!

Hunting use to be a sport of pride and moral ethics... I'm not sure that those high standards seem to apply much anymore...

How proud could a guy be to have a 200 plus deer hanging on the wall that he killed in a pen?

Much like everything else in this country I guess.. take the easy road...

Just my.02..not that it matters any more.. rolling down hill like a snow ball headed for ****..it won't be long till you can sit on your couch and watch your live cam and adjust your per arranged x- bow to make the shot with just a click of a button.... call it hunting?....im sure Fred Bear would be proud!

A lot of these so called Deer farms and I Know for a fact Turn loose Their Deer to Try and influence the genitics of the wild herd a lot are Guides and Outfitters also ..see the connection?? and Pav IMO trophy hunting is a cancer to our sport Remember how it used to be when EVERY DEER was a trophy

The reality is that people aren't paying top dollar to kill does.......It's about trophy hunting....

And while I agree with you about the difference between trophy hunting deer in the wild vs killing a deer in a pen....the emphasis on trophies has helped push us down this road.....

Check this article out.....It's an interesting read.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2010/08/trophy-trap?photo=1#node-1001330333

Finally, as the year pass and more and more hunting land is lost to sprawl and leasing, I would be be shocked if enclosures don't become more commonplace (and unfortunately)...accepted by many in the hunting population throughout the country.

If you lived next door to me, would you want me to put in a hog confinement? Would you want me to put in a shooting range? You telling me you wouldn't fight this in the process? How about a landfill? Don't want me to go hungry would you? I can use my property as I see fit…right?

Or if you were a legitimate cattle farmer, would you want one of these places right next door to you when they have a TB outbreak, and it affects YOUR business? Or your hunting ground is right next door, and one of their CWD infected deer get out and your hunting area has to be depopulated? Remember, these guys historically have not been made held accountable for their screw ups…….YOU foot the bill.

My point is, I can agree with you to a certain point. But, when it affects others negatively, (which these places eventually will), that's where the line needs to be drawn on what a guy can do with his own property.

Maybe one thing people may not realize. If CWD is found in a facility, it SHOULD always be considered "contaminated". This is a prion, and no known way to get rid of it. It stays in the soils, and they have now found that it can be taken up by plants and ingested. Which means, if a CWD infected animal is brought in and turned loose on a property, then there is a chance that the others could be infected. So, just getting rid of the carrier animal, does nothing! Also, anything hauled in the trailer it was brought in with in the middle of the night, could stand the same chance.

Since this is apparently gonna pass in some form (based on what Hatchet Jack posted), perhaps we should transfer our energy to establishing a reasonable regulatory and permitting scheme that will minimize chances for CWD issues???

You are right John. As bad as I hate to see it, if goes through, they do need to be regulated heavily. In the form of being fully bonded and insured. These jokers need to be held FULLY responsible for what happens. If one of my cows gets out, and eats the neighbors corn, I'M responsible. If one of my cows gets out on St.Rd. 3 and causes an accident I"M fully responsible. Not the neighbor, not the driver…….There is NO difference. Livestock is livestock…...

yep

is it really in our best interest to have whitetail deer in captivity classified as livestock?

I fought this fight with all the spare time I had.. tons of hours countless gallons of gas going to meetings that wound up going nowhere.. I care but I'm washing my hands of this one.. reap what you sow...I'll manage my place and pray the deer pimps don't screw it up. There are many that were/are spending far more effort on this issue than I ever did. I applaud your efforts! If we only had a few hundred more willing to do the same then real change could happen ... just a dream I guess..

I look at a high fence deer operation as a much cleaner, more environmentally friendly land use than many other legal farming operations that are perfectly legal such as dairy farms, hog farms, cattle operations, etc. Not near as many critters per square mile on a deer farm polluting the waterways and picking everything clean down to bare dirt. There aren't tons of manure to dispose of either, and they don't stink nearly as bad.

In fact it could be argued that a deer operation is more environmentally beneficial to general wildlife than clean grain farm field. After harvest a grain field has almost zero habitat value, while most deer operations at least leave some trees and cover that are beneficial to some small game year round.

But deer farms bring the risk of CWD and general farm livestock doesn't.

exactly.....+1

Funny
If we can only get this much interest in habitat issues for game birds and song birds as well.. not to mention deer...

Debate on!!!

I'll just hunt on!..

When the house comes tumbli ng
down just look in the mirror and ask what you did to prevent it?.. send out an email? Lol.. that won't cut the mustered.