Thank you HS for simplifying this even more. I really didnt think id have to butttt people still dont get it. It is the TIMING of the gun season that is the biggest issue. Bryan, the results would absolutely not be the same. sorry i didnt state the obvious that everything else would remain constant. it is much easier to kill a buck with a gun and is it much easier to kill a buck during the rut, typically. move gun season outside of the rut into december and less bucks get taken, thus more bucks live to the next year, thus more mature bucks. feel like i'm talking to a brick wall.