It is official. The recently adopted deer rule changes have been approved by the Attorney General and Governor so they will be effective for 2012. Included is allowing rifle cartridges with case lengths up to 1.800 inches.

Also, the developer of the .358 Hoosier wildcat cartridge will be removing its proprietary status on January 1, 2012. What this means is that manufacturing, purchasing, selling, and using chambering reamers, rifles, barrels, ammunition, formed cases, and reloading dies for this cartridge will not be limited by any type of licensing or royalty as long as the name .358 Hoosier is used for the cartridge. The process for someone wanting to acquire a reamer, rifle, barrel, ammunition, cases, or dies for a .358 Hoosier would be like that for a commercially available cartridge, such as a .308 Winchester. A difference is that at the present time there are not multiple sources for many of the items. Current sources include:

CHAMBERING REAMERS & Gauges -- Pacific Tool and Gauge (http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com 541-826-5808)
CUSTOM RIFLES -- A.J. Brown Arms (email alan@ajbrownarms.com 812-384-1056)
BARRELS (bolt action & TC Encore) -- A.J. Brown Arms
BARRELS (TC Encore) -- Match Grade Machine (MGM) (http://www.matchgrademachine.com/ 435-628-0071)
AMMUNITION -- A.J. Brown Arms
FORMED CASES -- A.J. Brown Arms
RELOADING DIES -- Hornady Manufacturing (http://www.hornady.com 800-338-3220)

More sources will likely become available as the wildcat gets more use and publicity.




This cartridge has been extensively tested with a variety of bullets and powders. Following are some of the desirable points that may be considered by a hunter wanting a new rifle, whether it is a custom-built bolt action (basic economy model up to a fancy expensive one) or just an extra barrel for his or her TC Encore:

• The .358 Hoosier, a center fire cartridge that will be legal in rifles for deer hunting in 2012
• 2650 ft/sec with 180 grain bullets; 2525 ft/sec with 200 grain bullets
• Ballistics (velocity, energy, and trajectory) much superior to the .35 Remington
• Ballistics approx. equal to factory .358 Winchester and slightly less than the currently legal .358 WSSM wildcat
• Cases easily made from economical and readily available .358 Winchester brass
• Cases made from .358 Winchester brass do not need neck turning or annealing
• Can be used in actions of economical, standard short-action bolt rifles originally chambered for the .308 Winchester family of cartridges (e.g., .308 Win, .243 Win, 7mm-08, .22-250 Rem)
• Can be used in actions of single shots and semiautomatics originally chambered for the .308 Winchester family of cartridges
• No need for bolt face or extractor modifications
• No need for magazine or side rail modifications, or spacers for proper feeding

This is not a wildcat boasting the highest possible velocity with the 1.800 maximum case length. However, it is a very practical wildcat. It offers economical basic rifle and brass costs, easily formed and loaded brass, and all the bullet velocity, energy, and accuracy needed to cleanly take deer (and other big game) up to the maximum distance at which probably 99 percent of the hunters can accurately place a bullet under field conditions.

At the present time please contact A.J. Brown Arms (email alan@ajbrownarms.com 812-384-1056) for more information on various options, prices, etc. He will have a table at the Indy 1500 Gun Show on January 13, 14, and 15, 2012. It is located on or near the south wall of the building. He will have a .358 Hoosier bolt rifle he built plus a TC Encore with 2 or 3 barrels made by MGM. Also, he will have a table at the Indiana Deer and Turkey Expo on February 17, 18, and 19, 2012.

If the .358 Hoosier is superior to the .35 Remington and equal to the .358 Winchester. WHY doesn't the State of Indiana make the available .35 Remington or .358 Win legal??? Sounds LAME to me! :rolleyes:

The .35 remington and 30-30 are very well known guns for Brush country hunting..All this other crap is just confusing and will never be used by most hunters...I Know many hunters already have a .35 or 30-30 they could use .I know I do...LOL...Ive been to a few of gun shops in the last year or so and they couldnt even tell me what was legal and what wasnt...LOL...

I'm not following how this round could be fired in a .243 or .22-250???

The round would be fired in a NEW barrel fitted to the action of a rifle originally chambered for the .308 Winchester family of cartridges. Alterations of the bolt, extractor, magazine, etc. should not be needed for proper functioning. The original post has been clarified. Thanks.

So this would work if I purchased a .308 bolt gun, purchased a custom barrel and that's it? It would feed and fire ok without any other modifications other than the barrel? Sounds like a good deal to me. Very interested.

Will be interesting to see how this cartridge is accepted by the public. Especially in areas of Indiana that is highly populated. Also I bet there will be some landowners/farms that won't allow it's use for hunting due to safety issues. (My opinion)

OK, got ya now... new barrel+old action. Thx

I thought they had to be a straight wall cartridge to be shot out of a rifle.the 358 H looks like it is necked down.

Bottlenecked cartridges have been legal for several years.

I know nothing about these so let me ask a dumb question or two. How does it compare to the 358wssm. Saw where a guy has it shooting 200 yards no problem??

The .358 WSSM has a little more powder capacity than the .358 Hoosier and a little more velocity -- estimated at roughly 100 feet per second more. With the .358 Hoosier at 2650 feet per second and the .358 WSSM at 2750 feet per second, and both using a 180 grain Hornady jacketed bullet, we have the following comparison when both are zeroed at 200 yards:

.358 Hoosier
Distance (yd)…..……0…….100…..200…..300
Velocity (ft/sec)…2650…2303…1982…1691
Energy (ft lbs)….…2807…2119…1570…1143
Trajectory (in)……-1.5….+2.6….0.0.…-11.5

.358 WSSM
Distance (yd)…..……0…….100…..200…..300
Velocity (ft/sec)…2750…2395…2067…1768
Energy (ft lbs)….…3022…2293…1708…1249
Trajectory (in)……-1.5….+2.3….0.0.…-10.5

Refer to the text just below the picture in the original post for several advantages of the .358 Hoosier cartridge.

I dont care for the case design of the .358 WSSM.

Originally, The IDNR intended PCR's chambered for traditional Pistol cartridges like the .357 Mag,.41 Mag, & .44 Magnum + a few other cartridges classified a handgun cartridges. Nothing was said about these new wildcat cartridges inwhich they (IDNR) might rescind, if issues with safety start cropping up.

OUCH, 900 to convert my Remington over.

I believe the Remington conversion includes several extras, including refinishing all of the metal parts and improving the action/bolt fit. A couple very economical conversions include the Savage and Marlin short actions in which only the new barrel is refinished. Need to check with the gunsmith for more details and prices.

Or even the stevens rifle that is a made by savage.

Does that even make sense to you?

He just said a Savage would run 385 to get ready to go. Guess I will look for a used Savage.

Are there any other cartridges that will be legal? I heard from reliable sources that the .450 Bushmaster would be legal for this year but I'm not sure on the case length.

I am sure that I wont be butchering my .308 for a wildcat round though.

Never mind. Case length on the .450 Bushmaster is 1.7". Sounds like I have a new gun to buy

At the recent Indiana Deer and Turkey Expo A.J. Brown Arms (email alan@ajbrownarms.com 812-384-1056) had for sale a good supply of commercially loaded .358 Hoosier ammo with 200 grain Hornady FTX and 200 grain Hornady Interlock spitzer bullets. He expects to also have some ammo with 180 grain Hornady Interlock spitzer bullets at the next Indy 1500 Gun Show (March 16-18). Some premium loaded ammo with 180 or 200 grain Barnes TSX bullets may be available by late March. Ammo can also be shipped to the customer at very reasonable cost via USPS flat rate box.

A.J. Brown is also going to be at the ANTLERTALK.COM deer show on March 10 at the Shrine Club in Jennings County.

Me neither!

Me would....

Me did

A.J. Brown Arms now has available commercially-loaded .358 Hoosier ammo with Hornady Interlock spitzer bullets weighing 180 and 200 grains. He also has some loaded with Hornady 200 grain FTX bullets. And, he recently received a limited supply of ammo loaded with the new Barnes TTSX FB (tipped TSX flat base) premium copper bullet weighing 180 grains.

For those who reload, or have an interest in ballistics, advertised ballistic coefficients (BC) and estimated* approximate cartridge overall lengths (COL) for these loaded rounds are:

Hornady 180 gr. Interlock spitzer (BC = .248) COL = 2.50”)
Hornady 200 gr. Interlock spitzer (BC = .282) COL = 2.55”)
Hornady 200 gr. FTX spitzer (BC = .300) (COL = 2.57”)
Barnes 180 gr. TTSX FB spitzer (BC = .295) (COL = 2.73”)

*These cartridge overall lengths work fine in my rifle. Bullets seated out further may cause the bullets to contact the rifling when chambered, possibly creating high pressures. A too long COL could also lead to a bullet stuck in the rifling (and powder spilled in the chamber and action) if the chambered round is extracted without firing.

Following is a link to a thread which includes a pic of a target shot with some of the 200 grain Hornady Interlock bullets launched from a T/C Encore barrel: http://www.antlertalk.com/atforums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3785

Following is some updated information on the .358 Hoosier for those who like to reload and/or are interested in calculated exterior ballistics, including downrange velocity, energy, and trajectory.

One easy to use online source (interactive) of exterior ballistics calculations is that hosted by the maker of Hornady bullets. It has a default “basic” as well as a more “advanced” version.
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

Assuming you will use standard units of measure (not metric) and the “basic” version, please specify:

BULLET used, its ballistic coefficient, muzzle velocity in ft/sec, and weight in grains.
MAXIMUM RANGE (in yards) for which you want calculations done.
INTERVAL (in yards) for which you want calculations displayed.
DISTANCE (in yards) at which you want the rifle zeroed.
SIGHT HEIGHT (in inches) above the centerline of the bore. (This is usually about 1.5 inches for scoped rifles.)

Following are some bullets found to be quite useful in the .358 Hoosier, including the description, weight, and advertised ballistic coefficient (BC):

Standard Bullets
Hornady 180 gr. Interlock spitzer (BC = .248)
Hornady 200 gr. Interlock spitzer (BC = .282)
Hornady 200 gr. FTX spitzer (BC = .300)

Premium Bullets (about 50 cents more per bullet)
Barnes 180 gr. TTSX FB spitzer (BC = .295)
Nosler 200 gr. Accubond BT spitzer (BC = .365)

As noted in the introductory information for the .358 Hoosier, a muzzle velocity of about 2650 ft/sec can be safely obtained with 180 grain bullets. And, a muzzle velocity of about 2525 ft/sec can be safely obtained with 200 grain bullets. Of course, this is with selected powders and charge weights. Have fun making some very easy ballistic comparisons as different values of velocity, bullet weight, distance zeroed, etc. are made!

Al came up with an interestiing round for sure. When I ge moved I might play around with it some I doubt id ever have a need for it in indiana but it still will be fun to play with

The September issue of Indiana Outdoor News contained an article on the .358 Hoosier. This tabloid/newspaper is dropped off at some of the sporting goods stores in the state, but I do not know which ones. By now the free issues may be gone. Maybe Indiana Game & Fish would do an article on .358 wildcats legal in rifles for deer hunting in Indiana?

However, a “permanent” reference on the .358 Hoosier that is “hot off the press” is the new 13th Edition of Cartridges of the World. It contains most of a page on the .358 Hoosier (page 221) in Chapter 4 -- Wildcat Cartridges. Included are limited loading data – which are MAXIMUM loads, even though the write up does not specifically state that. (Read Disclaimer and Warning on page 6.) Reloaders should NOT start out using MAXIMUM loads. It is often recommended that they start at a listed Starting Load, or about 5 percent below maximum loads, and carefully work up only as pressure signs indicate it is OK.

Chapter 4 on wildcats starts on page 165 and the introduction is worth reading. Also, a good read is a special feature on wildcats (pp. 448-452). These pages also include a few references to Indiana .358 wildcats.

As posted above, the latest edition (13th) of Cartridges of the World (COTW) includes some information on MAXIMUM loads for the .358 Hoosier. Please note the following additional information:

Bullet = 180 gr. Hornady SP/SSP #3505 (BC = 0.248)
Powder = 42.6 gr. Reloader 7 (MAXIMUM)
Velocity = 2690 ft/sec
Energy = 2892 ft pounds
Cartridge overall length (COL) = 2.50 inches
Case = made from .358 Winchester brass

Bullet = 180 gr. Barnes TTSX FB #35830 (BC = 0.295)
Powder = 43.0 gr. Reloader 10X (MAXIMUM)
Velocity = 2640 ft/sec
Energy = 2785 ft pounds
COL = 2.73 inches
Case = from .358 Winchester

Bullet = 200 gr. Hornady PSP #3510 (BC = 0.282)
Powder = 43.0 gr. Reloader 10X (MAXIMUM)
Velocity = 2550 ft/sec
Energy = 2887 ft pounds
COL = 2.55 inches
Case = from .358 Winchester

CAUTION: The format of the publication (COTW) allows only limited loading data to be given. Missing is information very important to the person handloading the cartridge, such as cartridge overall length (COL), cases used, primers, and barrel length. (The above loads were developed using Winchester standard large rifle primers and fired in a Marlin XS7 rifle sporting a 22-inch Shilen barrel with a 1 in 14 twist.) Also, when loading cartridges with heavy powder charges the author normally taps the case gently on the loading bench as the weighed powder charge is poured into the case mouth through a small funnel. This is done to settle the heavier powder charges and AVOID compressed loads. It is again emphasized that the loads given above are considered MAXIMUM loads, even though COTW does not specifically state that. (Read the COTW Disclaimer and Warning on page 6.) Handloaders should NOT start out using MAXIMUM loads. It is often recommended that they start at a listed Starting Load, or about 5 PERCENT BELOW maximum loads, and carefully work up in small increments ONLY if pressure signs indicate it is OK.

Please note that the author is not specifically recommending any particular load. But, he is giving some of his observations and thinking. The individual handloader and shooter must realize that there are inherent risks in those activities that are beyond the control of the author and that the author assumes no liability whatsoever for use of the information posted.

For those interested, following is some more information on the .358 Hoosier that was posted on another site:

The .358 Hoosier case capacity is somewhat less than the .358 Winchester (.358 Win) case, of course. However, the shoulder is pushed back noticeably less than the overall shortening of the case, resulting in a little shorter neck than the parent case and retaining a considerable amount of the original powder capacity. Back in 1955, when the .358 Win was introduced, there was not nearly the wide variety of powders available for reloading as today. Also, Winchester originally loaded the cartridge to a little higher advertised velocity than today, for example 2530 versus 2490 ft/sec for the 200 gr. bullet. A 250 gr. bullet was originally shown at 2250 ft/sec. That bullet option was later dropped by the factory.

Even back in the early years some reloading manuals showed several .358 Win loads that exceeded published Winchester factory velocities. For example, in the 1st edition (1965) of Cartridges of the World (COTW) it states that “performance can be improved a little by handloading.” COTW goes on to list loads giving 2580 and 2560 ft/sec for a 200 gr. bullet and 2390 and 2400 ft/sec for a 250 gr. bullet. That seems to show significant improvement in performance by using powders different than what Winchester used, and perhaps still uses. Pressures are not given and the most recent COTW does not list those loads. Instead, COTW now gives loads similar to Winchester factory loads from information supplied by Hornady, Speer, and Sierra.

The 25th (1986) edition of the Hodgdon manual shows a .358 Win maximum load giving 2374 ft/sec for a 250 gr. bullet at a pressure of 52,200 Copper Units of Pressure (CUP). The current Hodgdon powder website (for Hodgdon, IMR, & Winchester powders only) ( http://www.hodgdon.com ) shows maximum .358 Win loads giving 2565 and 2630 ft/sec for the 200 gr. Hornady PSP bullet, and 2257 and 2260 ft/sec for the 250 gr. Nosler Partition bullet. The website shows the above loads with pressures in the range of 50,500 to 51,800 CUP.

Today there are many different powders that did not exist in 1955. Many have filled large gaps (niches) in powder burn rates that existed back then. Some current cartridge manufacturers, such as Hornady, have taken advantage of these new powders (and new pressure measuring technology) to boost velocities of some of the older cartridges, such as the venerable .30-06. And, they still keep their new factory ammunition within industry accepted pressure limits. Similarly, handloaders can safely gain several more feet per second from many cartridges, wildcats as well as factory, than was possible several years ago. It is now widely accepted that many of the smaller capacity cases are indeed very efficient. Combine the smaller case capacity, improved powders, and a relatively large caliber, and you can achieve some pretty respectable velocities with a given bullet weight at safe pressures.

I think we live in a Golden Age of Reloading.

......Unless the antigunners & Obama take away our 2nd amendment along with banning all reloading & ammo supplies.

While I was doing early development and chronographing work on the Hoosier wildcat I used cases formed almost exclusively from Winchester factory .358 Winchester brass. It was the easiest to work with, did not require neck annealing or outside neck turning, already had a ”.358” in the head stamp, and was the logical parent case for the wildcat. As an experiment I took one case formed from .358 Winchester brass and loaded it many times to use for a fouling shot as I tested many different bullets and powder charges. Would you believe that I have reloaded that one case 35 times! Some of the reloading involved neck sizing only and some involved full length resizing. I did not keep track of how many of each. However, I believe the time has come to retire the case. Now it does not seem to grip the bullets quite as tightly as originally, and the primers are not held as tightly, but they do not fall out! I have never annealed the neck of that case and the neck has never split.

Originally I gave a recommendation that handloaders stick to factory .358 Winchester brass to form cases for the .358 Hoosier. Further, I warned against using military brass in 7.62 NATO and other brass made to military specifications (milspec) because that brass is typically thicker and heavier than the commercial .308 Winchester brass. Cases formed from military and milspec brass would likely have thicker necks and reduced powder capacity, which could lead to excessive pressures for a given load. But, cases formed from most commercial .308 Winchester would probably be OK. However, there could be some extra work in expanding the neck of the parent cases.

During chronographing work I also used for fouling shots a case formed from the Winchester brand of factory .308 Winchester brass. The resulting case worked just fine. I annealed the new neck. However, I probably did not need to anneal because all of the Hoosier neck came from the .308 Winchester neck and shoulder, both of which I believe are already factory annealed. [You may have seen the annealing “colors” on 7.62 NATO and .30-06 military brass just below the shoulder/body junction.] The annealing “colors” are polished out on commercial brass, but the brass is properly annealed. I have reloaded that case 10 times and it is still going strong.

Also, as a result of the seasonal short supply of commercial .358 Winchester brass, as well as its relatively higher price, several handloaders have started using the Winchester brand of .308 Winchester brass to make their Hoosier cases. The commercial supplier of .358 Hoosier ammo to A. J. Brown Arms is also using the Winchester brand of .308 Winchester brass for much of his ammo. I do not know if the supplier has tried other brands of commercial .308 Winchester brass.

This would also be a good time to note that handloaders forming their own .358 Hoosier brass should first cut the parent case back to an overall length of about 1.80 inches BEFORE running it into the Hornady brand of .358 Hoosier full length resizing die. [Otherwise you may ruin the case inside the Hornady die because of its limited interior space.] Then trim the formed case to proper length and chamfer the case mouth. You are ready to prime and load.

In designing the cartridge chamber reamer the free bore/lead and throat dimensions were chosen so that the loaded cartridges would chamber with readily available bullets of 180 and 200 grains weight, have adequate bullet seating depth to give good neck tension, and maximize the available powder space. Also, the loaded cartridges had to meet an overall length of less than 2.80 inches so they would feed properly from common short-action bolt rifles. The resulting design is somewhat of a compromise, but it allows excellent performance of all existing 180 and 200 grain bullets.

Bullets that I successfully used in chronograph work included the 180 gr. Hornady SSP Interlock, the 200 gr. Hornady SP Interlock, the Barnes 180 gr. TTSX, and the Nosler 200 gr. Accubond bullet. Both Hornady bullets have a relatively short spire point, whereas the Barnes and Nosler bullets have much longer, more streamlined noses. The Barnes bullet is all copper (less dense than lead) and is much longer that the Hornady bullet of the same weight. The Nosler bullet is of conventional lead core design, but includes a very long pointed nose and a boat tail. Hence, it is much longer than the Hornady bullet of the same weight. The chamber reamer dimensions selected result in a design that can pretty well accommodate nearly any jacketed .358 rifle bullet of 180 to 200 grains from any major manufacturer. You would, of course, need to experiment to see what the optimum overall length of the loaded cartridge is.

You could use somewhat heavier bullets than 200 grains. However, you begin to face a tradeoff situation in that the bullet base must be seated so deeply that it may significantly intrude on available powder space. Heavier bullets may also warrant a slower burning powder. I chose not to go that route, believing that available bullets weighing 180 to 200 grains would do just fine for whatever big game animals I would likely hunt, including deer and elk. I especially like the Barnes TTSX bullets and the Nosler Accubond bullets for elk.

The following is an updated list of sources for .358 Hoosier stuff of which I am aware. Readers of this thread are encouraged to post any additional sources.

CHAMBERING REAMERS & Gauges
Pacific Tool and Gauge www.pacifictoolandgauge.com
(Finish reamer Print Number D-32464)
P.O. Box 2549
598 Ave. C
White City, OR 97503
Phone: 541-826-5808
Email: pacpes@medford.net

JGS Precision Tool Mfg., LLC www.jgstools.com
60819 Selander Road
Coos Bay, OR 97420
Phone: 541/267-4331
Fax: 541/267-5996
Email: sales@jgstools.com


CUSTOM RIFLES
A.J. Brown Arms (Alan Brown) www.ajbrownarms.com
709 N. Washington St. (by appointment only)
Bloomfield, IN 47424
Phone: 812-384-1056
Email: alan@ajbrownarms.com

Penrod Precision (Mark Penrod)
312 College Ave.
North Manchester, IN 46962
Phone: 260-982-8385
Email: markpenrod@kconline.com

Ski Rifles LLC (Robert Stenski) www.skirifles.biz
204 Lucky Lane (by appointment only)
Pendleton, IN 46064
Phone: 317-401-6222
Email: polish.avenger@comcast.net

Phoenix Guns
5025 E. State St. (SR 46/SR 7)
Columbus, IN 47201
Shop Phone: 812-378-5727
Other Phone: 812-447-0448
Email: hatcon1@sbcglobal.net


SAVAGE RIFLES
M&S Armament (Mario) www.msarmament.com
1740 E. St. Rd. 163
Clinton, IN 47842
Phone: 765-505-1387
Email: mario@msarmament.com


BARRELS (bolt action & T/C Encore)
A.J. Brown Arms

Phoenix Guns

BARRELS (Savage bolt action)
BFG Design LLC www.bfgcartridges.com
Box 72
Clinton, IN 47842
Email: bryan@bfgcartridges.com

BARRELS (T/C Encore & bolt action)
Match Grade Machine (MGM) www.matchgrademachine.com
963 North 1400 West
St. George, UT 84770
Phone: 435-628-0071)
Email: office@matchgrademachine.com

BARRELS (bolt action)
Douglas Barrels, Inc. (Stan Taylor) www.douglasbarrels.net
5504 Big Tyler Road
Charleston, WV 25313-1398
Phone: 304-776-1341


AMMUNITION
Jim Waldrip
Ammo Manufacturer
Email: mkb42h8kurtz@gmail.com

A.J. Brown Arms

Phoenix Guns

Profire Arms and Supply www.profiresupply.com
7341 Rockville Rd.
Indianapolis, IN 46214
Phone: 317-757-8132


FORMED CASES
A.J. Brown Arms

BFG Design LLC

M&S Armament

Phoenix Guns

Profire Arms and Supply


RELOADING DIES
Hornady Manufacturing www.hornady.com
ATTN: Ben Syring
3625 West Old Potash Hwy.
P.O. Box 1848
Grand Island, NE 68802
Phone: 800-338-3220 X261
Email: bsyring@hornady.com

BFG Design LLC

M&S Armament

Phoenix Guns

BFG Design LLC and M&S Armament have been added to the list of suppliers of stuff for the .358 Hoosier. See the modified list above this post.

Ski Rifles LLC has been added to the list of suppliers of custom rifles for the .358 Hoosier. See the modified list two posts above.

Phoenix Guns has been added to the list of suppliers of custom rifles and other items for the .358 Hoosier. See the modified list in my original post (a few posts above this one).

Interesting reading. Thanks for posting this, Bill!