I'm not speaking for Joe or the club, but I just thought I'd give my thoughts Tim. In regard to the Federal Funds, I don't think those can be used by another agency but I may stand corrected by Joe or others. I think the issue is that the Governors office can control the Fish and Wildlife budget approval process, which then ties up those dollars. Then, if those dollars are sitting in a fund, even though they can't be "taken" by the governor or other state agencies, they can be a credit towards a government surplus, which of course makes whomever the sitting governor look good. Taking this one step further though, outside the federal matching funds, I would never put it past the legislature or the possibly any sitting governor making an effort to get to those funds and use them for other purposes. Maybe they can't now, but as we all know, times can change.

My thought on the farming issue is that it is more of a privatization of wildlife issue. Of course, the argument is that these animals are no longer wild if they are farmed and bought commercially. Then the issue comes, and I've had an issue with this for many years, if farm animals must be destroyed due to disease, often the citizen have to pay a replacement fee for those animals. The risk of the prions in dense populations is certainly well stated and it seems that any attempt to policing these operations have been terribly inadequate. When the risk then creates an issue for wildlife, real wildlife, it becomes an even more difficult situation. So for me, it's a privatization issue and many would then say, "well you must be against put and take birds", which I will admit does present a difficult argument unless I say yes I'm against that.

Now, your comment about deer attractants is also a fair comment. For those who say yes (And I am one of those from time to time), then is seems like if one is against the farming issue then they are almost creating a double standard. So, if the country is to allow this type of activity, it seems to suggest that the activity might need to be highly regulated, at a minimum, to protect the wildlife. New Zealand is a good example where I believe they don't allow any import of deer because of the risk of disease. The current environment seems to both the enforcement aspect and the penalty aspect for violations that risk disease spread and the wild resource.

I think your question is fair and not out of line. If we say privatization is ok, then where is the line drawn on other wild species. This is the problem that the DNR and the legislature then faces. To me, it's not just about deer, but about a much bigger picture.

Deer farms Are the Origin OF CWD why would any deer hunter concerned with the resource want them

Was it deer farms or was it research of deer that were in a captive environment? Not really sure but have been told differently a few times. The prions though are apparently present in nature otherwise but become more active in high density controlled areas?

Dave again I am not here trying to argue I just want to know DO WE LOSE Pitman Robertson DOLLARS ??? Which I do believe we do if tied up in a SLUSH FUND or WHATEVERE THEY CALL IT. So the State of Indiana Goverment is throwing away Federal Matched Dollars Earned by Sportsmen that could Pay for Employees and Land Purchases if I am correct in this Statement? Also Dave I have some of the Same thoughts as you on Put and Take Birds and Attractants not sure where I stand on of it don't really have one for or againist.

I'm just not up to speed on the Pitman funds like some others are so I'm kind of afraid of stating something wrong. I do know though that there has been some issues in the past about possibly losing matching funds over various license structures or such. But again, I've gotta leave that to others who followed it more closely.

And Delaney wins. Research kuru, scrapie, cwd, bse, cjd, vcjd and follow were it takes you. Journals not popular fiction. Why on the map of outbreaks is colorado so densly marked? Many dilemas. Across complicated arenas. Unwinnable fight. Thats why we stay out of it. WE STAND ON NO PART OF THIS ISSUE BEFORE ANYONE SUGGESTS IT.

But was told about Joe Bacon again spreading false information. He is not nor never has been banned from our site. Nor is his son, in fact Tony posted comments several times. He and Tony are welcome on our page to comment away. I do have to come back and defend ourselves against these outright slanderous statements just to harm our progress towards the cause and mission. However we do not tolerate this back and forth by one or two individuals when it promotes disharmony and threatens our mission of advocating for tbe resource.

Pittman Robertson funds can and have been lost or recalled. They have to be spent in a certain fashion and timeframe. Bottom line if politicians using funds for shell game, funds are not being used. Wildlife and wild places cant wait. Things deteriorate then because of negligence cost even more dollars just to play catchup. The funds are provided by sportsmen to manage out wildlife not put a feather in a politicians hat by tricky accounting.

Joe it is obvious we cannot tolerate one another, however I thought deep down you always cared about the resource and surely would put that above this childish petty crap. I left for same reason I left IDHA, no good can come from this constant antagonism. Especially when by such a small minority that is perpetuating such. I am sorry though you said you would, but cannot stop this petty crap for the good of the resource.

I have not stopped advocating for the resource rather will expend my limited respurces where it will have some impact. Not going to spin my wheels in this eternal fight over nothing with such a few that seem to not care as much about THE resource as the do their own egos. That is not leadership MR BACON.

I know this guys. IF you guys, Joe and Gary, can find a way to work together and find a way to move the back and forth to a totally productive level, sportsmen will win. It seems very clear that both of you can bring a lot of knowledge and energy and DNR history to the table, more than most who post on here can do, certainly including me. I'm not suggesting that everyone agree on everything, that someone always has to be right vs. wrong, but instead I'm suggesting that you guys move to a different level, forgetting even the organizations themselves, and put your minds together. At the end of that day, I can guarantee that the resource would likely be the big winner, and possibly even the DNR.

Forget these issues are they are divisive and will limit, if not eliminate, any possibility of progress.

- The canned hunting and deer farming issue.
- Any season changes or weapons issues.
- Any total overhaul of current deer regulations.

Instead find a way to get a foot in the door on behalf of the DNR and it's financial and staffing issues. Try to get some logic and further explanation into the deer determination numbers and how they then relate to bonus permits and depredation tags. Heck, look at how the depredation tags are issued, which hasn't changed for a long time, and see if there is an opportunity to have that reassessed. The back and forth over technical details while good and informing at times diminishes the real global issues. And again, leave the two organizations out of it but instead simply open a dialogue and even see if you can engage Gene and a few others. Every day that energy is spent on the squabbling is a day that the resource loses. And honestly, that goes for all of us, including me, that spends too little time on engaging and way to much time typing.

Can you all cone together to get behind this. https://www.facebook.com/gawalters1/posts/10153544973149233

[QUOTE]Originally posted by delaney:
Moderators, maybe time to consider shutting this thread down also? I had a comment today from someone that monitors the various hunting sites, you should be able to guess where from, who asked me what is wrong with these folks and whether "they" realized the damage this stuff is causing. I suggested to him that he reach and ask that question to many on here. [/QUOTE

I think most folks don't want to post because they just don't want to deal with the negative comments that might then come their way. It's unfortunate but it is likely the typical situation of most sites. And actually, it's probably why the DNR seems to now prefer to send surveys so they can try to get the views and opinions of the silent majority. I also believe it's why so any shy away from joining hunting groups because they don't want anything to do with the drama that usually comes with it. So then it creates the small vocal groups that really don't represent enough people to be meaningful in the scope of influence and then those small groups fight amongst themselves further alienating the groups from most of the hunters. Now, that's not to suggest that groups don't do good things, because they do. But often those goods things are overshadowed by the perceived drama.

Amen...+1

Sometimes it's not the issues it the people and there past history that are trying to represent the issues is where the problem is.... IMO

https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/posts/1039692686042413:0

PR monies..........

15% of your purchase of various hunting related gear goes as a tax to the Federal Government and place directly into the PR fund.

Each state is given a percentage of the fund dependent on two things.

1 Land mass of the state

2 The number of hunters in the state

In the last six years the PR monies have soared due to the present national administration and its view on guns. American citizens as you know are buying guns and ammo like never before! Indiana has been using the majority of their share to purchase property for hunting and fishing. Good use for the money as we as sportsmen can never have enough public land.

We are limited by the rules on disbursement, our land mass is smaller than a lot of other states. Then, what seems to be a misconception, each hunter can only be counted once. It IS NOT every license purchased. So when Gary waants people to hurt IDNR's PR money by not purchasing a antleress license it doesn't work that way. ANY single type of license and IDNR gets paid.

Now when IDNR gets the money it must be spent and it can not be held or moved to a "slush fund". Rules are VERY Specific and fines are large if misused. Only license fees are moved to state accounting and held hostage by the legislature.

A few years ago the FWCC looked at creating a user fee for Fish & Wildlife areas so we could capture some money for the non consumptive users, hikers, bird watchers ect... We were told if PR monies were used in any way on the property if a user fee was established ALL PR money used on those properties would have to be refunded.

I hope this helps for those who wanted to know more.

Gary...........

You only need to click once.....lol

No more double posts!

If you do double post click on the pencil to edit and you can remove the 2nd post.

Hope this helps.

Where did you find Indiana funds sitting in limbo data?

Here is sonething we should care about. Possible EHD breakout. We are working hard to confirm.

https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/posts/1041047119240303:0

https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/posts/1040662459278769

Deer farmers are reporting with pics, say BOAH BEING NOTIFIED. As we know the vector midge does not recognize fences or property lines. Gary

Here is sonething we should care about. Possible EHD breakout. We are working hard to confirm.

https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/posts/1041047119240303:0

https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/posts/1040662459278769

Deer farmers are reporting with pics, say BOAH BEING NOTIFIED. As we know the vector midge does not recognize fences or property lines. Gary

Are these reports cencerning wild deer or deer raised on farms?

BTW, I read the part about fences....I'm just curious......

I don't fully understand this stuff, but with all the mud this year from the rains, it would seem that these midges, along with the rest of the bugs, should be overwhelming.

The midges does not know Property Lines!!!!!!

I understand that, but my question remains. Are these reports of EHD affecting captive, wild deer or both @ this time?


GaryWalters That's all I wanted to know. So @ this time, it's the deer farmers reporting the outbreak. Has it been confirmed by a biologist or are they awaiting the results?

BTW Gary....how about posting stuff like this in one area of the forum, one time. Doing it the other way, creates multiple threads and redundancy in questions and answers.....Just trying to save you time and energy.

Very true! However, some biologists even believe that captive deer on farms/preserves are more suceptable to illnesses (perhaps even EHD) than wild....absolutely no conclusive evidence either way from what I've read or searched for myself though.

I was spreading the word, you desire any more information look on our Facebook page for those concerned about the issues. Posting multiple places is common sense to get word out?? You all better wake up, you are losing any voice the deer hunter has left with this childish crap, yes crap. This is about the resource not any individual and if you can't get past your pettiness and childishness we will lose it all. And that does upset me, because you are hurting my grandkids chance at enjoying what you seem to take for granted, and frankly makes me sick to my stomach.

We posted these answers to all your questions several places, yet some seem not to know, then in same breath say we posting too much. My goodness. That doesn't even make sense. ]

Seems you have your own resident deer biologist as well that can dispute everything one way or another. Go back and look, different every day.

We have reports from farms currently, they supposed to be being checked by BOAH with Necropsy, DNR states they have not done any testing yet this year. However if it is positive will affect the wild herd to some extent. See you fella's.

Not to bring up old wounds, but on page 6 of this conversation several including JB brought up about a pic we posted, claiming we were misleading by using a simple illustration. Just seen the new hunting regs and inside front cover is Lee from Lee and Tiffany L. dragging out a big buck. Does he hunt in Indiana, or in Iowa on his own farms? Just thought if later is the case, you better get on the DNR for misleading if using the same criteria you used against us. Sorry couldn't pass up pointing it out.

Unless the picture was captioned with something that is not true its an apples to oranges comparison. Something along the lines of "here is lee dragging out a deer he killed in indiana" when in fact the deer was killed in another state. Since you brought it up.....

Let's hold the emotions in check if we can. It's been a couple of positive days in regard to posts and it'd be great to keep the positive going.

Sorry but I gotta draw the line if Lee is in there, lol. But seriously now, if Tiffany wants to hunt here I'd help her drag any day! Tiffany if you're on here, PM me for some good hunting spots that have plenty of free range non-EHD deer. You can even bring Lee. How bout that for a positive, Delaney!

Oh my word...sometimes you read something and you seriously have to convince yourself you read that right....smh

Double B,

EXACTLY....the pic in the hunting book is a add for Under Armour clothing....

Haven't seen it yet in person but going of description sounds like an advertisement...no harm no foul.

lol ... I just looked at it. It isnt even an apples to oranges comparison. Its more like an apples to televisions comparison.

Page 2

http://www.eregulations.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/15INHD_LR.pdf

So you're telling me I got no chance of hunting w Tiffany? I stayed up all night waiting for a PM and watching meteor showers and all I got was more energy drink infused ramblings. Story of my life.

Okay well that is settled...back to the original discussion then because this shouldn't garner any attention.

I've seen quite a few folks posting it would seem larger than normal fawn survival occurred this year due to reports on forums and just myself talking to people...now granted there are pockets still in BIG need of help numbers wise...but you gotta think this year's lush green spring definitely help kick start fawn development and lesson mother doe stress levels (encourages better milk/lactation).

Time will tell but hopefully those areas that were low in numbers, with proper harvest trigger control when needed I bet some may be shocked what a year difference makes next year. Would love to get another spring next year like this one (maybe a little more spread out rain wise though...I know many a farmer that lost crops).

Nice...

Double B If you look @ the ad, it appears that the huge deer Lee and his pal are dragging out doesn't have a body...

Maybe you could offer to help Lee drag some more mounts out of the wilds of Iowa and work your way up to hunting buddy. Do all that and perhaps.... you'll get a chance to hunt with Tiffany someday.

After all, a man needs goals.....

So you're telling me there's a chance!

You never know....

This wet spring, per reports has had actually a bad effect on fawns d/t pneumonia.