You are probably on to something Paul related to population. My statement that the "[harvest] trend is stable" is just that, a statement. And a true one at that. No optimistic bias intended.

The only real data we have is the harvest. The harvest trend is stable over the past 3 years.

I understand that harvest and population are different and certainly not correlated in an exact way. And the public policy goals of the management agency were stated to be deer population reduction when the last major policy change occurred. There is sufficient evidence now that this policy was effective. None of this should be a surprise.

I saw more deer on my property...and bigger deer..than I have in many years

your lucky then...Porter Co. was horrendous from what numerous landowners have told me... I know of several that would not allow the rifles or does killed on their places till the herd starts showing an increase on their places... Jasper/Pulaski didnt even break 100 deer killed from what I was told today, maybe only in the 80ish deer killed range...wont know the exact numbers till they get the final check in tally from the state...need to see the hunter numbers also, but anyway you look at it, it sucked .... not sure of Kingsbury yet, but again after talking to a handful of guys that put in their time there said deer were non-existent (so to speak) ...

PAV,
I like the case you make...You obviously think like I do. I remember the 2014 weather.
I also believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and that EHD was a BIG factor. So,
Do you expect us to have a harvest of 100,000 5 years from now? If it continues to drop significantly over the next 5 years I think we have a bigger problem than I see right now.
I haven't been seeing deer from the road for several years. I've been wondering if it's just that the deer are becoming more nocturnal or less likely to show themselves due to deer hunters being in the woods 365 days/year checking cameras, trimming lanes, food plots etc...
Another thing I find interesting is I'm seeing way more mature bucks being taken than I could've ever imagined. I'm not saying that it means anything? But the last 3 years or so, I'm dumbfounded by the pictures I'm getting from buddies of mature bucks being killed.

119,220 as of this morning.

That compares to 125,045 on the Wednesday after the extra antlerless season ended last year. (Interestingly, that number is about 2,000 deer fewer than the total from the Deer Harvest Summary Report. I suppose there were corrections?)

So it looks like roughly a 4.5% decline in the harvest from last year. My guess is that should start to get some attention.

A few points...

1. If the harvest number for this season stayed where it is right now (119,220), we would see a harvest decline of 3.5% (as compared to last season). Two seasons ago we were @ 120,073 and last season we ended up @ 123,664. Ups and downs occur.

2. Herd reduction. The reality is...like it or not...agree with it or not....if herd reduction is working, the harvest numbers SHOULD drop and level out @ a lower number than previous seasons. Where will that number end up? 120,000? 115,000? A bit higher? A bit lower? Somewhere in between? I guess time will tell.

3. What matters more IMO, is the makeup of the harvest, the break down of the numbers by county, and the comparison of county totals over the last few seasons. The harvest reports provide those numbers.

And those harvest reports ONLY supply "numbers"..... they do not give the "story behind the numbers" as they are NOT simply "comparative" numbers from year to year. We have not had season after season after season the last several years with the same regs in place................... we have had HUGE changes (addition of crossbows, rifles and extended antlerless specific seasons that make harvest easier and more attainable to those that would not have had a harvest or multiple harvests with old regs) in the last seasons to help make the "numbers" appear like there is not a drastic reduction in our herd. The graduated "piling on" of these easier to use/longer yardage weapons and length of antlerless season with a gun over the last few years is the TRUTH behind those numbers.

To ignore that fact is just plain "Obamacare Stupid".......


We have proven once again........ hunters will NOT regulate the booger finger on their own given the chance to just shoot. Yes.... herd reduction was the goal........ and it has decisively happened........and the weapon/season of choice to get those numbers down was the gun and lengthy gun season. Story after story coming in from our County goes like this......

1) People getting out of deer hunting

2) People losing their ground due to few numbers of deer and people kicking the "irresponsible shooters" out.....and more responsible hunters in. Those with $$ are leasing out the idiots where and when they can. This trend will continue....and will leave less hunters in the pool to sell tags to.

3) Those still taking care of their deer herd are still doing ok, barely .... and that is not because of the IDNR regs.......it's because of their own responsible regs they practice on their own ground. Their borders are taking beating by those that could care less....and have ran out of deer to shoot on places they used to hunt. The owners of private land that are getting tired of this WILL BE the voice that gets gun season shortened. The hunters that are tired of not seeing deer WIL BE the voice of getting "irresponsible takers" leased off or moved off the properties. It's happening now...... the lower numbers of deer are going to accelerate this even more.

4) More speaking up to reduce gun days than ever. Many are sick of what they have seen. If they can't have "quantity" anymore...... they at least would like to have some "quality" to keep them interested. The "perfect mess" is low quantity AND low quality.......and Indiana leads the Midwest in that recipe right now with over 30+ days to gun hunt for bucks, and middle of the rut gun hunting, AND extended seasons to just hunt antlerless.

Yup ........

Word on the street is Lic. Sales have spiked up this year!

The property borders are killing us...especially during the late antlerless season. Two out of the last three years, there has been corn on neighboring properties well into the winter months. Those fields draw every deer for miles once other food sources dry up.

Also, noticing increased evidence of trespassing. With 40 days of gun hunting...it is virtually impossible to keep close tabs on the property.

Don't forget the 100+ plus days of BowHunting for trespassers to use also :rolleyes:

In the end, like it or not, the decision was made to try to reduce the herd.

And while people complain about the firearms seasons, the FACT of the matter is, unless/until the bow hunters in this state prove that they can/will step up and help manage the herd, the firearms seasons are THE management tool.

Finally...while it's easy to complain about things we don't like, I find it totally hypocritical for the main complainer to b*tch about the firearms season for years on end, whining and crying about the length/timing of it, yet when it benefits him, he sure didn't seem to mind taking advantage of those extra days this firearms season so he could hang another head on the wall....

I get that Brew...but the reality is, we have only caught one bowhunter trespassing in 25 years. One reason for that is we're bowhunters and spend alot more time at the farm during archery season.

The other reason is most trespassers hunt the fringes. Big difference between a guy near the property line with 35 yards of effective range versus a guy in the same tree with 250 yards of effective range. More "incentive" (risk versus reward) for the guy with extra range to push the envelope.

I used to gun hunt too...and it wasn't the weapon that turned me against firearms season. It was people. I'm sure there are azzwipes in the woods during bowseason...but there are ALOT more of them in the woods during firearms season.

In no way do I intend to insinuate all gun hunters are cut from the same cloth. Some of my best friends and even family members gun hunt.

I am sure if Bowhunters where required to wear orange you would caught many more....IMO

I read something a while back that changed my responses on these forums. I think many on these type of threads may be suited to contemplate.

It went something like this: Think about what it takes to get you to change your mind or take a new position on something you value. Now imagine what it would take for you to effect the opinion of a stranger on a forum that has been making the same arguments for years. Now think about all the time you're likely wasting trying to convince them.

I personally decided conversations and questions are good but the same regurgitation of crap from the same people over and over really was just a waste of time trying to convince them it's crap. Just something to think about. But then again it's cold outside and maybe someone will get luck and swing the pendulum for someone, haha.

Cody.Query, if I had an award to give, it'd go to you for the Wisest Post so far in 20 pages

This thread has run its course! Dooms day is upon us all the deer are dead and so is this thread> BOOM!

How can that be? Knowitall Dew says hunters are dropping out

And wasn't all these hyper long range rifles of cervid destruction going to put the harvest numbers through the roof?

Back to the original topic.. 119,234 have been checked in so far

In my experience, trespassers typically don't wear orange while in the act of trespassing. They are already breaking the law. Why would breaking another law that otherwise might get you caught matter?

We don't have any idea what that number would look like without rifles? Safe bet it would be lower though.

I'd bet 99% killed with a rifle would be just as dead with a muzzleloader or shotgun.

With so much talk of how the deer herd would be negatively impacted this season with hprs, I went back and looked @ the firearms harvest totals from 2011/2015 and compared that with the rough data available from this past season.

The average number of deer harvested during that time was 73,000 per firearms season.

The average number of antlered deer harvested during that time was was 32,000 per firearms season.

The average number of antlerless deer harvested during that time was 41,000 per firearms season.

For the 2016 firearms season, the rough figure for these 16 days was approximately 75,000 deer. But...this figure includes deer taken by bow, crossbow, shotgun, handgun, rifle, and muzzleloader during those 16 days and as such, that figure is normally adjusted down to reflect the bow and crossbow kills by a couple of thousand deer.

If these figures hold when the harvest report is published, that would put this years firearms season harvest total right around the previous 5 year average.

Seriously!?

I would take that bet in a heartbeat. My guess is the number of deer killed this year at long range (beyond typical shotgun range) is in the thousands. Yes, some of those deer may have been killed later at closer ranges...but definitely not all or even 99% of them.

I can't argue with that. The majority of deer in any given year are absolutely killed with firearms.

So, if/when the time comes the state feels reduction is achieved and they maybe need to cut back on season lengths....it sounds like bowhunters can count on your support to shorten gun season (management tool) and leave bow season (recreational tool) alone...right?

Lol....

IMO for anyone to make a legitimate case for the firearms seasons to be shortened, the archery hunters (and yes that includes crossbow hunters) need to step up and become more of a management tool instead of a recreational tool and 25% of the total harvest doesn't reach that criteria.

I shortened my firearms season for the past 2 years. Not 1 day spent on stand.

RIP...Gundude

I would say 100%....dead is dead. h.h.

yea, if they were closer .... SMH ... I know of several guys who killed deer in the south county that used .243 and.308's and they said they never would have killed them if it wasnt for the rifles, as they wouldnt have attempted the shots with their slug guns....it seems there is some one on here that killed a good buck at an extended range with a rifle...like I said earlier, the only reason we had the kill we did this year was because of a more efficient weapon and the ability and the want to shoot at longer ranges.... the gun kill WAS UP, that will be the only season that was....

My shot was 180yds, but my Accura V2 could easily do that.

On my way home a few mins ago, I saw 20-23 deer feeding together in snow covered field (urban zone)!
I may have to go back out for one more! LOL

One thing that needs to be considered isn't just whether a particular deer would have been killed but whether that hunter would have killed a deer with a shorter range weapon. In other words, would that hunter's success rate been different if he/she didn't have a longer range weapon. I'd guess in most cases, the answer is no.

Killing a deer isn't that hard, even with a 100 yard gun. And as far as population management, it is even easier to kill any doe with a 100 yard gun. So a hunter who wants to kill a doe will kill one with some exceptions of course even if they have to get within 100 yards of one.

In the end, the effect of HPRs on overall population is probably negligible. They probably did bump the harvest a point or two.

Yup, was about to type this exact response. I agree 100%.

About an hour earlier, there were about 25 turkeys in the same place.

I agree with you John, good post. I know a few guys who killed does at long range, but just because they could. I don't know anybody personally that shot a buck at long range.

So........ you are advocating that our bow hunters still be forced into a false label of "recreational" since they currently aren't allowed to be recognized for their full potential as they get squashed out of 40+ days of gun hunters taking over.

In Ohio..... those same bow/crossbow hunters get to show how effective they can be for another 27 days without having to get squashed by the gun hunters....... AND they get to hunt during the easiest time of the year to get a deer without gun hunting interference.... the rut..... AND ..... they get to hunt all through January into early February with their bow/crossbow.....and the result is that the Ohio DNR sees them as a "management tool"....because they ALLOW them to be a "management tool".

In fact........ I remember Woody making the case to our IDNR using Ohio stats saying if they would scrap Prop #1 and allow crossbows like Ohio .... the Archery Hunters of this State would no longer be seen as "recreational" and would become a force for being a "management tool". He just forgot to add other regs Ohio had to make sure the Archery gang got to flex their full muscle. Hmmmmmm...... wonder why he left THAT out.... LOL!!


So...... jjas....... are you willing to let the bow/crossbow hunters do what you know they CAN do?? Or do you still want to just "Pigeon Hole" them in the corner and label them as "recreational" so the gun hunters still get to hunt their beloved bucks for 30+ days.... and get the "false label" and get the "false credit" for "Indiana's only management tool".

Pony up to the bar..........

Well, well, well...quite the list of "witticisms" and criticism from the forums resident hypocrite again...

Let's get started....


As far as the archery season goes...

If it weren't for crossbow hunters, archery hunters would have accounted for a whopping 16% of the total harvest in 2015. And that is for a season that lasts 3 full months. Seems like plenty of opportunity to fill a tag to me...

Next subject...

The fact that Woody is still this deep in your head after all these years is a bit sad to say the least. You're big on inviting people to lunch, so perhaps it would be a good idea for you to invite Woody and work out your issues with him. Might make you feel better....

Finally (and this is my favorite)...

Dew as I say, not as I Dew You seriously went there?

After whining and crying and b*tching and moaning and groaning about the firearms season for years, did you conveniently forget about filling your tag this season with the "beloved buck" (that you even named) on the last Saturday of the FIREARMS SEASON....

What a hypocrite....

Just getting what I typed on this new page for all to see....

1) You can call me names all you want, and come up with your little "nursery rhyme chants"....... it's all you got left as I've absolutely GUTTED your feeble, house of cards, smoke and mirrors "logic".....

2) Again...... you forget to include that DURING that 3 month period archery took place..... 40+ days of it most were toting guns, during the middle of the rut which does not allow the bow hunters to show what they REALLY can do......like other States allow their Bow Hunters to do. You simply regurgitate numbers without displaying the TRUE FRAMEWORK behind those numbers. You are LIVID, PIZZED OFF FIRE-ANTS that I'm shining a light into your Kock-roach eyes.... and bringing to the table TRUTH you simply do not want to acknowledge. Live with it Dude...... I'm gonna force this pill down your throat for all to watch....

3) You lay in bed at night stewing how to explain how the State gave me "16 days to get to Florida (get a buck with a gun)".... and I took the last 3 days to "Make my Trip to Florida"...and got there. :p But you want to say it took me "the entire 16 days for me to arrive in Florida".......and I only was in the car (hunted) 3 days. I didn't NEED the 16 days....... I only needed 3. I CHOSE what days I drove the car.... and it INFURIATES you I and other States around us display year after year after year... it takes WAY less days "to get to Florida" than what we are given. And so then you lay in bed for many more nights just hoping if you fling the word "Hypocrite" around as much as you can......something might "stick". It stuck alright.......... right to the middle of your house of cards...... and you seethe and obsess on how to get out the knot that is now twisted in your own logic and own words and own undermining of our IDNR the YOU were involved in. You know .........I know........other Midwest States know........It don't take 30+ days of gun season in the middle of the rut to get the job done......... and You know.........I know........and other Midwest States know that handcuffing bow and crossbow hunters and then calling them "recreational" is a joke.

I'm SO in your head........ and you can't stop....

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Problem is, you are putting the cart in front of the horse with that statement. What you are asking for is actually a result...not an antecedent.

Shorten gun season significantly and the archery/crossbow harvest percentage will climb. The two absolutely go hand in hand. A short gun season is the reason Ohio archery/crossbow hunters account for roughly 45% of the total harvest(yes, Ohio archery/crossbow hunters are killing more deer annually than Indiana gun hunters are killing during firearms season).

When gun season doesn't offer enough recreational opportunity to keep hunters satisfied, they pick up other weapons and keep hunting.