Why hire a biologist that has specialized in Deer Management And insist tha a bunch of Laymen call the shots an then throw a fit when you don't get your way I've fill out a small game survey for years it Ask buck ,doe ,fawns and how many there are How long it took you to see them what county hunted morning , Evening Predators seen and ask for comments
The problem People don't return them , hate to admit it but I've been one
Join a group you can align with and give them credit for being your mouthpiece or get envolved with some other outfit
About all I can see is constant praise and the explaining on the virtues and good things about canned hunting and Deer. Farm I don't agree with that and don't want to be even remotely associated with that kind of reasoning

Look
I really don't care what you guys think but the Three at the table helped make the antlerless quotas by agreeing with DNR
Joe has said he has learned how to get along with the DNR
Good oleBoys Club as you would like to say
The Three at the table represented less than 750 folks

IWDHM HAD in TEN COUNTIES OVER ONE THOUSAND HUNTERS NON HUNTERS AND NON MEMBERS TAKE VOTES IN THEIR PROSPECTIVE COUNTIES !!

I get it jjas Brew Throwback you don't want people speaking for you but Three do so and have for more than Thirty Years!!

Kinda like congress
Think about it

Ferb, for the record, I totally understand what you're asking. I agree that in order to speak for hunters you probably need to know what it is hunters want, right?
I'm burnt on all this stuff...and you know why because I told you...

But I think things are looking up here in Indiana. I'm seeing FAR more deer in my travels than I've seen in a few years. I bet, not withstanding bad weather and or a ton of corn standing this fall, that this years harvest numbers will improve. I really think EHD thumped us good. I know it did around me.
I think if you're lucky enough to still have a decent place to hunt, or are dumping thousands into Basecamps early retirement fund...you will have a great deer season this fall.

Also
Hunter survey not been looked or used since 2013
Landowner since 2008
At time of meeting in May

So who they listening to you ???

You want to work for the IWDHM have @ it. I can't support the group due to their attitudes and tactics.

There is a better way and hopefully what the biologist @ the meeting was talking about will come to fruition in one form or another.

That's YOUR version of how things works ... many other know different!
Thank God...

And here's the thing jjas would you know about what the Biologist said in said meeting if IWDHM and the CDAC's chairmen weren't there and one of them filming that so called Stakeholders meeting
That one of the Three said is this going to be a working Group ????
What's that tell you??
Greg
What have you ever done for the good of deer hunting ???
All I've ever said was do something get the your voices heard if you don't like IDHA IWDHM IBA
Get more involved and not here behind a screen name because you don't want folks to know who you are !

Think about it
When was the last time you were in front of anyone downtown trying to make any type of change
As a matter of fact who beside Joe Doug Gene
Matt Gary David Tim Kyle Rick Steve Kevin John Chad
Tried to make a difference in deer hunting for Future Generations and that our Heritage of Hunting is carried on

Think about it
Tim

Instead of complaining and lecturing people to "think about it" why don't you take your own advice and go back to your group's leadership and ask them if they realize that their inexperience and lack of tact has caused many of their problems.

Think about it....

+1... Best post in the thread!

Think about it....

Here is the Email in Question!!

On Apr 13, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Marcus, Mitch wrote:

Back in 2010, the DNR/DFW met with stakeholders and agreed that together we should focus deer herd reduction in a strategically targeted manner to more adequately balance ecological, recreational and economic needs of the citizens of Indiana. We reviewed lots of data, had good discussion and ultimately worked with the Natural Resources Commission (NRC) to make deer regulation changes. We promised each other and the NRC that we would get together 5 years after regulation changes, and evaluate. It is time to gather again and evaluate. We are proposing an evening meeting in central Indiana on May 8th, 10th, or 11th. Please respond to me, by COB next Tuesday (4/18/17), on your availability for those evenings. If we choose a date that you are unable to attend, please attempt to find an alternate to represent the Indiana Whitetail Deer Herd Management Group.

Mitch Marcus, Wildlife Section Chief
Indiana Division of Fish and Wildlife
402 W. Washington St., Rm W273
Indianapolis, IN 46204-2781
317-234-4914 (W)
317-232-8150 (fax)
The Division of Fish and Wildlife manages all fish and wildlife species for the citizens of Indiana. Fish and wildlife management and public access are funded by fishing and hunting license revenue, donations to the nongame fund, and also through the Sport Fish and Wildlife Restoration Programs administered by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Find out more information about fish and wildlife management in Indiana at www.in.gov/dnr/

Now then which one you You has agreed to make changes with DNR ??? Who you BREW YOU JJAS

Mitch,

Thank you for the invitation. Wen. or Thurs., May 10th or 11th, would be best for our board. We all have varying schedules. The board will attend as possible, dependent on what day and time is decided. Monday May 8, would be the worst day for us. We will work to have as many of our board members attend any day.

FYI, our entire board, dependent on scheduling, will be attending, as well as any regional reps, County Deer Advisory Council Chairpersons, or Council members will be welcome to accompany us. From the very foundation of our GROUP, we have made it perfectly clear, there would be no individual ever "representing" IWDHM, nor would there be any money involved in the way of dues and so forth. With that said we will also record the meeting to share with our Group. Even with the very strict rules of the FWCC (that not one person in 7 CDAC meetings has heard of) we had the one representative at the table, while many of us were there texting him information in real-time.

We do this, to prevent what our older deer groups/organizations have become, whereas such a very few represent themselves and their personal agenda, without polling their members or giving any post meeting briefing to their members. We will pray you would understand this, and welcome all that would desire to attend, and be open to a record of the meeting that will be available to all stakeholders that participate in our group. Total, unbending transparency.

We also do not consider this to be a replacement meeting with DNR leadership regarding the completion of our CDAC pilots. We would also pray, that in a meeting regarding the future of deer management in Indiana, CDAC's will be part of that discussion from the start.

Matt Barton


This was our response
Never ever did we get told No that no one else could come
We also explained In the email not one person would represent IWDHM

From the original correspondence sent by Mitch Marcus....

If we choose a date that you are unable to attend, please attempt to find an alternate to represent the Indiana Whitetail Deer Herd Management Group.

When the original correspondence was sent to you, it clearly states that if you are unable to attend, please attempt to find an alternate to represent the IWDHM. AN alternate (as in one), not a whole group. Instead of doing that...the group took it among yourselves to reply, (and I quote)... .

Then...@ the meeting the IWDHM was asked to send one person up to join the group and the IWDHM wouldn't do that either. Instead the members of the IWDHM chose to interrupt the meeting over and over again.

So once again, your group's lack of tact and the inability to work within the framework presented, resulted in your group not getting it's way, and since then it's been nothing but a temper tantrum on your facebook page about how the director was "mean" to all of you.

Think about it....

JJAS
You hit the nail on the head It was NOT their meeting they were looking for a fight before they even set foot in the door there was nothing done other than the director Trying to stay on topic and remain in control of their meeting not Theirs . They should have sent the one rep ask for recorded the meeting and then reported back to the group imo

No Fight Just Transparency as stated
Question still has yet to be answered how many stakeholders did the Three at the table represent ?

What constitutes a Stakeholder of the entire state of Indiana ?!
We did not go looking for a Fight
I was unable to attend but was on the web watching and listening!
Joe Caudell will be as good as his bosses allow him yo be his hands will be and are tied
As in the video he wanted the entire state to have three or less bonus antlerless quotas !!!
That didn't happen now did it
Fight **** we all should be fighting for Future of Hunting but


You Gentleman have a Great Weekend

Quincy Hunter

I don't remember him saying that, but for the sake of argument, let's say he did. How many deer do you figure that would have "saved" last season?

Give me a bundle and three bonus tags and I could kill six deer with my county being a 3. If a person hunts multiple counties (I hunt in 3), I could kill far more than that. The reality is, if a person wants to kill 6 deer (and last season that was only 198 hunters in the entire state for a total of 1188 deer) they will just spread the harvest out and use multiple equipment/seasons/counties to do so.

BTW....if you add up the number of deer killed by hunters who killed more than 6 deer last season it only totals 1272 deer harvested by 160 hunters in the entire state.

So other than doing away with the late antlerless season, what will that really accomplish?

Where did anyone at the table say they where representing anyone other then there self???? Go ahead and post up the quote and video to back the claim!!

I am sure If the IDHA had free memberships and a like button for anyone in the world to click there membership would triple....and of course be in partnership with Deer farmers would push them over the top! SMH

jjas... save some deer/Does from getting killed.... we dont need the late season kill the does season... period... what we also need is a state limit per hunter ...

As I stated previously....

Give me a bundle and three bonus tags and I could kill six deer with my county being a 3 (meaning no late antlerless season). If a person hunts multiple counties (I hunt in 3), I could kill far more than that.

Your point about a state wide limit doesn't appear to be on the agenda of the IWDHM. Going after the number of bonus antlerless permits is. But for the sake of the discussion, where would you say that number should be and what do you base that on?

And don't forget that even if you did away with every bonus antlerless permit in the state (which isn't going to happen), hunters could still kill 4 deer each.

The above reasons are a part of why I think they are wasting their time going after the bonus antlerless permits/late antlerless season, as the effect on the overall harvest would likely be minimal.

I can understand and to a degree (being a bowhunter) see no point in the late antlerless. That said it has become an incredible time frame for a lot of land managers to make antlerless harvest decisions. It is after the onslaught of firearms season where the vast majority of the harvest occurs...and land owners can see how their specific localized doe population was affected and act accordingly.

I personally rarely will go after a second doe until after gun season...and I hunt 3 (arguably 4) very different localized deer herds in my area with little to no overlap (especially in doe families). However, I do this in part knowing that should numbers really show not many got harvested I can go the safe and swift route in late season, put bow down, grab ML and harvest a doe on late season food.

I'd argue personally it is not the season itself that is the issue...it is the small number which abuse it...I mean incredibly small if we start putting figures on it.

As for the statewide hunter limit...okay but at what? How do you tell a guy who owns and invests a ton into deer habitat work that between his 100 acre farm in county "x" plus his 45 acre spot he lives at in county "y" plus his 500 acre private farm he has access to one county over from "y" in county "z" that he can only take 2 does and 1 buck (the most common thing I tend to read).

I've only one year I think (two maybe if a younger year one is slipping me) have harvested more than 2 deer. So I am not speaking to any of this with any biasness at all.

Another thing to remember is just how miniscule the amount of hunters exist each year that harvest say 3 or more...go further to 4 or more and the number is crazy small. The difference made to the herd by removing that TINY figure would barely be measurable and hunters wouldn't even see a difference in sightings IMO....shoot some by me know swear the deer are extinct...others view them as numerable as mosquitos

Sorry to rain on your parade there Ty, by late antlerless, does are yarded up or herded up for the winter. Times you will see 50 together, but it will not be the fifty in your area, they may come from miles around and give a false sense of population, though you may not have a single deer the rest of the year. This is fact, anyone that hangs in the deer woods as much as you should know this. We have one area that consistently brings all ages of bucks from up to 10 miles away for that winter food source. That is fact.

Secondly, you all keep playing numbers to benefit your agruement. No since even going there. In either 2010 or 2011, hunters taking 4 or more deer amounted to 38,000 deer.

Even Dr. Kroll says, you cannot ever know exactly how many deer you have, impossible if not behind a fence, tagged, collared, or marked somehow. You may think you know, but you never do Dr. Kroll, little more expert than SMALL ACRE HUNTING BLOG. . . .

Valovich, dead on. The idea is to save some does and give our kids the same opportunities we had. Period. However, you all want to act like some back yard biologists. LMAO. The DNR even says they are managing for social capacity. CDACs lets every single person THEMSELF< JJAS< speak for themselves and come to an agreement between farmers and hunters, photographers and foresters. . . . . So all get heard, a concenses it obtained in front of every SELF JJAS BREW. . . The recommendation goes to the deer biologist, who then uses it, UNLESS there is a scientific reason not to. ALL FREE.

Big problem here you all are not seeing in overthinking this to make only you 3-4 correct is we just need to save some does. Most people are trained to not kill what they don't eat. So DFW puts big numbers to give the impression there are lots of deer and need to kill as many as possible. There own words to present a impression to harvest more in those counties. Secondly, they override guilt going against what our father's taught us. OH YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEEL GUILTY IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO EAT IT. DONATE IT TO THE HOMELESS, OR WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER PROGRAM TO SHARE WITH PETA PEOPLE THAT DON'T HUNT BUT WANT HEALTHY VENISON. SO DON'T WORRY KEEP KILLING AS MANY AS YOU WANT, UNLIMITED RESOURCE.

Valovich has it, just save some **** does for our kids, use some common sense and tell hunters the truth. Most hunt a couple days a year and don't have an idea about biology or anything else. They trust the DNR is managing them correctly. **** they want us to have HPR's and all these tags 4-8 bounus counties, late season during herding up period on food sources. Heck yes, lets get us one of them their AR15's and kill us some of them their deer.

CDAC's JJAS BREW Valovich Ferb, anyone gives you all as your SELF and opportunity to give real hard core valuable input into your areas. You are too dang dumb to see it. Flat out, or your ego's being Jr. Biologist has clouded your minds. Brew by the way, Joe Bacon clearly states he is at the table as President of the IDHA. So where are the meetings, were did they ask any members, were have they shared about the stakeholders meetings before and after? Where Where Where? You have been following so long you all have lost sight of the big picture. Deer hunting is supposed to be fun, we want to see and have our kids see deer. We want to kill a couple to augment our diets. We want to watch them on our farms, taking sunday drives with the family in the evening to look for deer. Do all the things that stimulate the economy d/t DEER DEER DEER. Is it that **** hard, seriously.

Thanks valovich, not in total agreement but you get it.

Yea, I know I do... Ive typed it multiple times on here...when a county is listed as a 8 or 4, it give the impression there is an over abundance of deer... ok, so many dont kill more than two or 3...but if there's 3 or 4 guys on the neighboring property taking those numbers, or trying to take thos numbers it all add's up .... but hey, the DNR SAYS there is an over population problem or they wouldnt have us at a 4 or 8 county bonus.... Ive always been against the late "kill all the Does" season and firmly believe we need a hunter limit...I aint changing my mind on this either....

Okay too tired of this all to let some stuff just roll of the back like normal so let's go piece by piece:

Unlike you I never will say definitive 100% statements when it comes to such non-definitive things like what localized deer do in any given area. In some area you are 100% correct that should areas lack in any kind of food those doe groups (which may or may not be multiple summertime groupings together or not) will travel miles or transition to a wintering spot. Very true, but do not belittle me as I've never done that to anyone with statements like "anyone that hangs in the deer woods as much as you should know this"...I never said the contrary. In many areas with multiple land managers implementing food plots, often the doe family groups you see together in late December can be just the local 4 or 5 separate summer groups that already utilized the area now simply together that you see. Nothing is for sure, it is mother nature afterall.

Also the last part about bucks, never once even discussed bucks in my post...

Um...that figure includes the first 3 taken which would have been taken if limited to 3. The true measure of impact is when you add up only the 4th deers and the 5th deers and so on. So if only 380 hunters take a fourth deer and you limit it to 3 antlerless...you essentially save 380. I am in no way saying that is bad or good and no I am not playing any numbers for my favor, what you stated as you stated it is 100% correct no doubt (I didn't check it but as you stated it and memory remembers similar so no question)


Dr. Kroll saying no one can ever know is 100% CORRECT and I've never claimed otherwise. Take your back handed comment about Small Acre Hunting home, it was just pure childish. I've never once claimed to be an expert, know more than a biologist or for that matter more than any other serious hunter, land manager, consultant or anyone else. I know countless hunters that in my opinion are better than me, countless land managers with more knowledge & experience than me and would surely pray all biologists associated with the cervidae family would have an expansive amount of knowledge which drawfs not only mine but anyone else here for that matter.

Have zero clue who you are Mr. Quincy Hunter, but obviously with the attacks and falsehoods you don't know me. I'd never state definitive statements on things subject to so many unknowns (deer numbers), never claim to know more than someone who went into a profession and obtained a degree in something...most importantly though, I'd never attempt underhanded or backhanded jabs at someone, just not my nature at all.


Right now I have numerous outlets and have never once felt I didn't have a voice which could be submitted. I've said countless times if my county had a CDAC I'd go, but wouldn't depend on it for my voice to be heard. I would go because nearly anything deer related I'm at least going to give a fair shake. Again leave the backhanded comments of "back yard biologists" at home, NO ONE HERE IS MAKING THIS CLAIM, stop.

And the vast majority of naive hunters will remain naive whether CDAC's form, whether quotas change...that will not change unless education and conservation is hammered into people. PETA folks don't eat meat typically fyi.

So.....now I don't care about the kids and I lie if I don't blindly agree...as Cris Carter would say "C'Mon Maaaaaan"


C'mon...be better than this.

Fun yes, easy...not necessarily, it isn't shopping at the grocery store. It teaches failure happens more than success which is the sole reason my father got me into it. As for your last statement...is it hard to simply be courteous and respectful?

-----------------------------------------

In the end, the attitudes are the serious issue here IMO. I could care less how right someone may be in ANY discussion or topic...if you cannot act respectful and mature you lose all credibility. I personally am not 100% I know who you are Quincy but I can tell a couple things. You are passionate about deer hunting. You care for its future. Both are things I would bet my life's savings EVERY person that has posted in this thread believes...however I don't truly think you believe that. Which is why zero discussion will ever occur which has any kind of true discussion of thoughts or sides...it is merely one side share and the other side attack...just incredibly sad truly.

Blessings to all and good luck this season. May your bow or gun be true and may you always return home to your families safe and sound.

Ty, done with it all.

Tynimiller,

Good post! You made many of the points I was going to, and you did it with a civil tone than I may not have been able to muster.

Have a good evening!

Listen gang,
We Hoosiers over-harvest everything in this state...Deer, rabbits, quail,pheasant, bass,crappie,walleye...Hoosiers are really into the outdoors, yet we have very little land and water compared to other states.
Ever hear of anyone from out of state coming here to hunt or fish for ANYTHING other than deer? And I'm willing to bet the majority of them own or lease land, which if you have either, all these limits mean very little. It's your land, manage it the way you want. If you own a pond or lake, you manage it the way you want, right? I know deer can cross boundaries but if you lease or own 150+ acres and have a couple neighbors who have the same...you oughta be able to agree to not over harvest.

My point is this, and I've said it many times, this isn't a DNR problem, it's a WE problem. If you go to Iowa, Illinois, Kansas...talk to the locals...they are managing themselves. They let little bucks walk, they keep an eye on the does...take more when they see a ton of them and back off when they don't see them. Illinois is TWO bucks right? Are they killing them all? Left only with 1 1/2 yr olds? No.

We have so little land access for the amount of hunters that it's a problem because guys spend their hard earned money on guns, bows, crossbows, releases, arrows, tree stands, camo, gas , FOOD PLOTS, TRAIL CAMERAS, LEASES, LEASE INSURANCE etc...and after all that, they don't wanna stop hunting on OCTOBER 1st after they killed their ONE BUCK that they had patterned by trail cam coming to their food plot every evening!!! Son, they're are gonna whack some antlerless deer. They gonna whack them and give them away if they have to. But they're gonna get they're moneys worth.

We need to SPREAD THE WORD. Spend your energy at hunting shows, Boat shows, Trailer Parks, Amish communities, any place hunters gather...telling people that we can take the DNR and insurance lobbies OUT OF THE EQUATION if we work together.

OR, just keep fighting with each other about who's right and who's wrong, and keep watching the herd disappear.

HS strut,

You say that Iowa and Illinois police themselves, yet I've read countless articles about perceived over harvesting in both of those states. As a matter of fact, there are residents in just about every single state in the Midwest that have been throwing a fit over the last several years due to herd reduction that most Midwest DNRs (including Indiana) have implemented.

You know....that's the thing that people continually forget when they debate this issue.

Herd Reduction...

The herd numbers were supposed to drop as harvest numbers came up. And while it's apparent that many don't agree with it, that was the plan.

And for those of you who continually harp on the number of deer killed with bonus antlerless permits (during herd reduction), I have a couple of questions for you...

Last season, what percentage of successful hunters took more than the 4 deer you can in this state without ever purchasing a single bonus antlerless license?

The answer is 1%.

And what percentage of the last year's total harvest is the number of deer taken by these successful hunters?

The answer is 4%.

So we're arguing about 4% of the harvest taken by 1% of successful hunters... during herd reduction . Ridiculous...

Finally, there is one point HS Strut made that I've made myself many times.

If you aren't happy with the number of deer you are seeing, quit killing deer...

jjas,
I'm not saying things are perfect in those other states. All I'm saying is NOBODY comes here to fish, hunt,boat etc...There's a good reason. Our fishing and hunting for everything but deer, sucks. Our lakes are PACKED with boats.

I agree with you that it's a small percentage of people killing lots of deer "Legally." Although I like the check-in online...I think we just ended our ability to really know the harvest numbers. Just too easy to cheat. I agree that having counties with a limit of "8" is giving the impression that they're overcrowded.

But again, it's always up to the individual. A limit means nothing if we choose to not pull the trigger.

You may want to check the the out of state lic. Sales before you make the statement "nobody"....because that's a FALSE statement

They come here to deer hunt, I believe I said that in my previous post? No, I know I did. They come here to deer hunt IF they have access to nice private land or if they lease. There's a LOT of people with big money who lease up large parcels and come here to hunt for a week or two. Why not? Our Non-Resident deer tags are priced like every other state prices a Non-Resident Fishing license. I think we should take advantage of that and at least DOUBLE the price for Non-Residents. If you used a corporate spending account to lease 1500 acres, you aren't letting a $350 deer tag keep you from hunting.

Agree on the NR pricing. IMO the deer license fee should be reciprocal to your home state's NR fee. If you come here from Illinois to hunt, a deer license would cost you about 500. From Iowa, about 550. Michigan about 170. And etc.

HS Strut I agree with both of you on the out of state pricing for deer. It's way too cheap....

That 8 bonus antler quota counties really seem to be the lightening rod when people complain about the bonus antlerless system. But if you look @ the data from last year, it's really kind of eye opening.

Last year (according to the harvest report) there were 78 hunters (statewide) who killed 8 deer (or more) during the deer season for a total of 698 deer.

Were these hunters feeding large familes? Where they game hogs? Were they landowners who own multiple properties in different counties? Perhaps they were hunters who leased multiple properties in different counties.

IMO, it would be interesting to see the breakdown...

As I stated check the Out of state lic. sales!

Yup, out of state licenses for deer is grossly too cheap. 100% agree. I also don't personally agree with landowners simply getting to hunt a resource the entire state citizens "own" (God really only owner). I own enough land to qualify for this but wouldn't...granted I use my lifetime license anyways but my father who owns land, harvests deer off of it, still purchases a license every single year because he'd rather fund the DNR and assist in conservation than not. I am a firm believer that yes, landowners should get a drastic cut but free is to me not justified.

-Private landowner myself.

Oh, and if one begins to truly look at the amount of deer killed over 3 (which could be covered in bundle) or 4 (which could be covered with regular tags if buck is harvested in firearms season) you really begin to see just how tiny of an impact bonus quotas make:

2015 Year
4,230 - The number of deer harvested which wouldn't be covered under a limit of 3 (or bundle currently)
2,688 - The number of deer harvested above 4 (which CAN be accomplished with regular tags).

2016 Year
3,686 - The number of deer harvested which wouldn't be covered under a limit of 3 (or bundle currently)
2,372 - The number of deer harvested above 4 (which CAN be accomplished with regular tags).

By the way Brew, sheep in Indiana, all over the state have scrapie. Scrapie and CWD are the same prion, name only refers to the species carrying the prion. Look it up, do something constructive. Do you see mass killings of sheep in a 10 mile circle? Don't you think it is already in Indiana but they don't want to find it yet. If found in wild first, DFW would be responsible with our dollars, if found in captive deer BOAH would me. Would say all these sheep with scrapie are around a few deer. So you check your facts. Convienient wipe off handy with them sheep, hope there was no srapie on the sheep farm you visited way back in the day.


Ty thought you were done, hear you go again, playing numbers and attempting to be smarter than everyone else. Though you said you were done. You all are hurting hunting more than you even realize. I hope someday you open your dang eyes.

Done with you 😁 others still have my ears as they've been respectful.

I'm not going to re-hash forum rules, they're clearly spelled out on the registration page.

I will say that nobody has ever been suspended from this forum for sharing ideas. That should be easy to understand.

Exactly..... Quincy Hunter aka Tim More with IWDHM has moved to a new low with his latest childish Banter! SMH