Pav Speaking of sources.....

Here's a bit of info that bowhunters should remember if they care to try and post entries to P&Y.

P&Y doesn't allow the use of "real time" cameras for book entries. Here's a response I received when I asked them that question.


"No problem with a trail camera as long as the camera doesn’t transmit an image to a computer or cell phone. If you need to go out to the camera and retrieve the card or photo it can be used."
Thanks,

———————————————–
Glenn Hisey
Director of Records
Pope and Young Club


So apparently I'm not the only person (or organization) who realizes the impact that cameras have had on deer hunting.

Is that source credible enough for you, Pav?

The impact of a real time camera which costs more than I care to spend is not the problem. Trail cameras aren't the ruination of hunting; people are. The same BS you get with politics these days is the same BS You get with hunting too. Season needs to start the first day fawns will be able to live without their mother up until deer start to give birth again with any weapon. When the deer population ends up like grouse in Indiana then season structure can be looked at again.

Did anyone see that in the rules proposals? THERE WILL BE NO SEASON ON RUFFED GROUSE IN INDIANA. NONE. Does anyone care? Will anyone care? It's a very sad thing that in this day and are you can lose an entire species in a state.

Very well stated, Matt!

John, the tradition does migrate over time. But the original issue of hunting for food us no longer a valid aspect of hunting from a need standpoint and hasn't been for many years. The food aspect simply is fallacy anymore. It was though the aspect of woodsman ship that the first hunters relied on, which has disappeared more and more with all technology. Technology is typically driven to help, or make easier or more convenient. Often intended, technology takes our any necessity of work or effort. Garbage disposals come to mind. Compounds made it easier, crossbows easier yet, inline muzzleloaders easier and long range rifles easier yet. Not to enhance woodsman ship or outdoor effort or knowledge, just easier. It is what it is, but it's not good and there is always a slippery slope,

Matt, your absolutely correct. The vast majority care about the wildlife only if they have an opportunity to kill it.

a 2013 study shows otherwise. 35% of hunters reported hunting primarily for meat . Up from 2006, I suspect the 08 economic downturn and rising food prices drive this.

Hunting "for meat" is the most #1 cited response to this survey of hunters done in 2013.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/wild-chef/2013/10/study-shows-more-hunters-are-it-meat

Varmint101,
No one said they were the ruination of hunting.

What I said was..."I'll tell you what is contributing more to the loss of woodsmanship and removing the "hunt" from hunting (more than anything else) is the game camera. Nothing has changed deer hunting as much in the last 10 years."

I didn't say ruined, I said changed. And anyone who denies the major impact of game cameras on deer hunting over the last several years or so is just kidding themselves.

In this day and age NOBODY (including that 35% quoted above) is going to starve to death if they don't kill a deer! Notice I didn't say "HUNT". It will help, but Its not purely subsistence hunting. Now, go back a 100 years, and that's a different story……..I'm sure that's the point Dave is trying to make.

Some very interesting viewpoints here.

Back to the original thread. I'm not in favor of adding all of the standard high powered rifle offerings. Wasn't a fan of crossbow legalization. Not much of a fan of the extended antlerless seasons, special added seasons for youth, or the generous distribution of antlerless tags either. Messed around with trail cams for a while too and don't do that anymore.

Need to remember that this is a "sport" and keep it somewhat "sporting".

I will have no problem hunting deer with a high powered rifle. Actually I can't wait for this to happen. I also have no problem using a .22 that can travel well over a mile to shoot a squirrel that's 20 yards away. Sure beats throwing rocks.

If you are a "traditionalist" then stay with the what makes you happy. As for the rest of us if it's legal we're going to use it.

Regardless of what a survey suggests and recognizing that hunters will often say for meat, it is without a reasonably doubt that many, if not the majority, of hunters would pay considerably less for meat at a grocery store per pound then what the cost of vension per pound costs them from hunting. So, while they may hunt for meat, for a cost perspective that is a luxury and not a necessity for survival.

Jjas, you still have to put cameras where the deer are unless you're baiting. You still need to know where deer are going to cross. I'm sure if you put enough time into it and had many many cameras you could really figure a deer out, but that same person is going to have strategic food plots, man made funnels, and a high tech compound or crossbow to finish the job. Cameras changing hunting I don't know for sure, but they have added a facet to scouting that wasn't there 20 years ago. As far as the actual hunt I believe food plots have affected that the most.

Anyways, high powered rifles will be approved. I'd always thought it was a safety issue why they weren't allowed, but apparently that was either a lie or a myth. Do what you want because that's what it's going to end up as. I will still be out there with my longbow, compound, or muzzleloader depending on my mood. I believe bow season (including crossbow) should start the 1st of Sept. or like Kentucky 1st Saturday of Sept. also. I had to throw that in there.

who remembers these??
=)

Varmint101
You make a good point about food plots, funnels and the like. And while food plots will draw them in, cameras placed in that plot or in the other areas you talked about will tell you what is using those areas and when it's happening.

And that makes patterning that "special" deer a whole lot easier.

Have a nice evening.

I never bought one but I do remember them. Everyone thought they were so "high tech"....LOL

This was posted on the DNR website and it explains the reasoning behind the hpr proposal...

The DNR believes this change can be made at this time for the following reasons:
There are currently no limits on rifles that are legal to use for species other than migratory birds, deer, and wild turkey.
Muzzleloaders have evolved to the point that with smokeless powder (which is legal to use), they are essentially a high-powered rifle (accurate 500 yard gun).
They are legal in several nearby states, including Kentucky, Michigan (the northern part of the state), and Pennsylvania.
There has not been an increase in hunting-related accidents as the result of the use of rifles, both in Indiana and in several other states where they are allowed.
There isn’t a need to limit the equipment that can be used to take deer in order to manage the deer herd. The deer harvest was a record in 2012, and the DNR is managing the deer herd through other means.
Rifle cartridges that fire a bullet at least .243 in diameter and have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches long can safely and humanely kill white-tailed deer.


http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/2362.htm

Thank you for your opinion, jjas. Have a good one.

Indiana's landscape is nothing like Kentucky, Pennsylvania, or upper Michigan. If it were we'd have elk(ky,pa), bear(all 3), and grouse!

Sorry, but I'm going to call your comments for what they are...complete BULLSH*T! Once again, you have formed an opinion and taken a hard line on a subject you apparently know very little about.

Yeah, a trail cam on a food source is likely going to tell you the best time to be there is the first hours of daylight and again at dusk. You are going to get a ton of photos of does, fawns and small bucks feeding during normal feeding hours. What a revelation! Hail to the trail cam!

By "special" deer, I'm assuming you are talking about trophy quality animals? Have YOU personally ever attempted to pattern a mature buck? If so, were you successful in killing that buck...while hunting on his pattern? I have had some success patterning mature bucks....that is, until they lose their velvet. At that point, they become totally different animals. Been using trail cams for a decade now...and I have yet to figure out the pattern of a mature buck during hunting season using rare, maybe one-off trail cam photos of a particular animal....which were most likely taken at night.

If anything, my trail cams have stopped me from shooting deer. Basically, I use trail cams as an inventory tool. During the course of the summer, I keep trail cams on mineral stations. By fall, I have a good grasp on fawn recruitment and how many mature does are using the property (very important given the recent EHD outbreaks). This is great information when determining the need for antlerless harvest.

By then, I've also got a look at most of the resident bucks... but have learned those bucks may not be around come October. Again, after they lose velvet, the game changes. I will move my trail cams to scrapes on field edges (easy access)once those start showing up. Most of those photos on scrapes will again be taken at night. You aren't going to pattern a mature buck in this manner...but the photos may help you decide what NOT to shoot.

I don't own any real time cameras...but I won't say never. If I had an out of state lease...I could see that type of camera coming in quite handy....and as long as I'm not using it while hunting...P&Y doesn't care.

Trail cameras have not even remotely altered the way I hunt. They do help me determine when I'm willing to release an arrow....be it antlered or antlerless. How any of this creates a negative affect on "woodsmanship" is beyond me? I can't help but wonder what you think "woodsmanship" means?

Have a nice.....whatever.

I like this comment ....
"Muzzleloaders have evolved to the point that with smokeless powder (which is legal to use), they are essentially a high-powered rifle (accurate 500 yard gun).

B.S. I'd like to see one of these accurate 500 yard muzzleloaders? Might be the rare true gun nut that has built something like this, but by and large 200 yards is pushing the accuracy limits of most modern muzzle loaders.

Heck .... 500 yards is one heck of a shot for a very experienced marksman with a scoped 300 mag off a bench.

My point of my comments noted above is that the DNR is simply applying a philosophy, not a management plan. And, using surrounding states as an example is very weak and without value. I heard the same type of justification when my daughters were young when they'd want to do something and justify it by saying the neighbor kids were allowed to do it. Very weak and unworthy of inclusion in their justification.

and here it is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO5WsXP_Kns

http://ultimatefirearms.com/modelsprices.php

kills documented up to 600 yards

another model from another manufacturer, 500 yds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEffaaeW1X0

Remington has a new gun also which claims 300 yd. performance rivaling a centerfire rifle. Check out the new ignition system!!

http://ultimatemuzzleloader.com/#intro

pav,

If cameras (and especially real time cameras) didn't have any effect on when/where/how deer are harvested, why would P&Y block entries from real time cameras?

The answer is ecause that's ultimately the point of cameras. To "inventory" and pattern certain deer so as to try and increase the odds of seeing it and killing it.

If you don't think they are that helpful, why use them during the season? Why not just do your "inventory", form your "hit list" (I hate both of those terms) and then pull the cameras once the season starts? Why not just hunt using your "woodsmanship" skills and let the chips (or deer) fall where they may?

Have a nice day.

If you were using it for inventory why would you pull it once season starts?? ESP during they rut a lot of new bucks show up.

JJAS, I think 'inventory" is the perfect word. Sure, it makes a business'ish application to deer management, but honestly that's what deer management is about in this day and age. Think how wonderful if the DNR could actually inventory the number of deer in Indiana, by county, by township, and so on. It is what is it, inventory.

I have a camera that texts pictures. I love it, and yes it makes inventory and patterning a LOT easier, for now. Sure, other deer will likely appear as season gets going and some will disappear. But for now, on 80 areas, along with the standard trail cameras used, I have an absolute inventory of the deer using that property. I will be pulled when season starts. I have put a lot of effort into conditioning deer this year also. And for now, it works ridiculously well. But, time will tell whether patterns change in the next few weeks. Now, if these approaches were "outlawed" tomorrow, I'd be fine with it. What I will say is that I know more about the property and the deer movement right now then I would have in the past, but only from a minute by minute aspect on one spot at a time where the Covert camera is. And again, I would have said no to legalizing these types of cameras, just like I would say no, my own personal preference, to a lot of other things in deer hunting and other types of hunting.

EXACTLY!

If anything……trail cameras have caused me to go without a buck for many, many seasons…..In the deer deprived area I hunt, I use them to mainly keep track of the does and # of fawns I have running around. Again, the reason I have NOT killed and antler less deer in more than 6 years….In the last 8 years of running multiple cameras, I have killed exactly ONE buck that I patterned with the camera. I killed him on the second day of bow season as a direct result of using that camera, However, it was in a permanent stand that I have taken many bucks out of in years past. So, I likely would have been hunting it with, or without a camera at it's base. Once the velvet comes off, they are a different creature……..And what does THIS have to do with a proposal to allow CFR's???

I have used them for years and dont find cams to be useful for patterning deer at all in the fall.

They tell me what is on the farms I hunt though.

My original point will all of this was/is very simple.

I can't think of a single other item that has had the impact on hunting that these cameras have had in the last several years. Not one.

Every year these cameras improve. The "real time" cameras are a perfect example of that and they can provide a significant "real time" advantage during the hunting season.

And given the fact that animals taken with help from "real time" game cameras are not being allowed by P&Y clearly illustrates that fact.

Enjoy your day.

They dont accept that but they accept deer shot at bait piles or in food plots. Makes sense to me. Those are putting those deer in specific locations not just telling you hen they are there.

And yaz do we ever stay on topic here?? Ha

You just answered your own question. You can put out a bait pile or a food plot but that doesn't mean the deer will be there when you are.

Cameras provide that info as to if/when deer are using that plot or pile. And the "real time" cameras obviously take that information and send it to you immediately.

How can you not see that as a tremendous advantage?

Not normally....lol. But the debates/discussions are normally pretty good.

Because anyone that hunts deer knows dusk and dawn and anytime during rut. When I put out my camera I'd bet the house that 90% of my pictures are between the daylight hours of 7am and 10am and evening from around 5:30 to dark then all tru the night at random hours. When you hunt when do you go out? Those same hours are my guess and why because that's when most deer are active. We knew that before cameras. A game trail tells you where the deer are but a camera just shows you what type of deer are there. I can honestly say a game camera has never aided me in anymore of a way to killing a deer than me going out and scouting an area. I just like to see what's out there.

What the heck do cams have to do with centerfires ?????????? Stay on subject please ..... Indiana isnt like those other states and notice that Michigan still has a Slug/ML zone....rifles are relegated to the northern portion only.... the 500yd ML use is really mute to the point as I'm sure very few will try that long of a shot and they are a SINGLESHOT....pistols are used my a minority of deer hunters...IF Indiana is like Michigan then relegate the rifles to the southern portion of this state south of I70 where there is more terrain....Like Ive said before centerfires in Marion, Lake and Porter counties and other high density counties, F&W areas, Park hunts(?) are a mistake IMHO and THAT is what I will tell the DNR.....I truly believe the deer herd will get hammered even more.... I have nothing against rifles, I love 'em, but NOT in this state....

So let's say you hunt in the morning and after you get down you check your cameras and one of them has multiple images of a good buck hanging out near a certain oak tree or an isolated food plot @ midday for a couple of days in a row, you wouldn't try to act on that?

Or if you had a real time camera and you are either headed to, or already sitting in a stand and your phone rang with a image of a buck headed to a spot you thought you could get to before he might. You wouldn't use that info to try and move on that deer?

And perhaps we should continue this via pm. The natives are getting restless....

I agree but in our we want it all world these days I'm afraid it's already decided. They will use other states as selling points as well as the fact we can coyote hunt with them now also. Which in my eyes isn't valid at all bc in my opinion you won't have a lot of coyote hunters in the woods like you do deer hunters.

"The natives are getting restless..."

^ This takes the place of meaningful exercise!

Pardon?

I feel like there are two issues here, and i'm ok with keeping them separate.
1. Should centerfires be legal? IMO yes. People hunt for different reasons. Many don't have the luxury I have of private land and the time to hunt. Potentially there is a safety issue, but maybe it would mean less shots as the accuracy increases. I bought a savage model 11 in the spring for coyotes in .243 and put a redfield 4x12 on it. As an average shooter, it didn't take much effort for 2" groups @100yds with factory loads. If a guy isn't going to get much time in the woods, I think there will be more clean kills for them. We could argue all day on the ricochet or guys taking 400yd shots, but jackarses will be jackarses no matter what. I personally would be better at 200 with my .243 than 150 with my muzzleloader.

2. Is it sporting or hunting? I personally wouldn't use these calibers for deer unless out west on a spot and stalk. There's no way you can convince me that shooting a dialed in 30-06 from 200yds to take a booner, in your heated tower blind drinking pop/coffee and eating donuts, is anywhere near as difficult as a trad guy taking one at 10yds. So I'll stick to my compound (settle down trad guys, I haven't graduated yet) and maybe get out the .44 1895 with iron sights a time or two. In my mind, "hunting" occurs maybe at 50yds. or less, but that doesn't make me right.