Pope & Young is now allowing lighted nocks and bow-mounted cameras as permitted equipment when entering eligible animals.

http://www.pope-young.org/clubnews_main.asp

Dont use either.... I have no electronics at all on the bow or arrows.....

i don't see any problem with these 2 requirements..uh besides how in the **** are they gonna enforce this? of course, I guess that kinda comes into play with a lot of the regs. taking people's "word" for it doesn't work out too often anymore

been a slippery slope since they allowed compounds, high let off bows >65%, what's next crossbows??

=)

Might as well...it's no longer "hunting". Lead the charge, Chevy! :rolleyes:

Lol!

Pope and Young needs an "Opportunity" book....

Lol!

I don't understand the big deal about either of these... Neither "improves" your chances of harvesting a deer so I don't see a fuss about them...

But I don't hunt for the purpose of putting my name in a book and neither should anyone else...

Personally, I refrained from voting on this issue in 2013 due to mixed emotions on the subject. Was not involved in this year's decision, as only regular and senior members voted.

On one hand, I don't believe either device can be considered a "bowhunting aid". On the other hand, I've seen the negative side of "relaxing" regulations.

As for the comment above regarding the P&Y records program, there are very few that would fall under the category of "hunting for the purpose of putting thier name in a book"...but there are many that support the P&Y club by paying to have an animal entered when fortunate enough to harvest a qualifyer.

Too many people are under the misconception the P&Y Club exists for the record books. The truth is, the record books help financially support the P&Y Club. The club has done and will continue to do great things with that money.

Entering animals in the record book is also a requirement for advanced membership in the P&Y Club. To become an Associate member, one only needs to have taken one big game animal (of any size) with bow and arrow. To beome a regular member, a bowhunter must have at least one big game animal listed in the record book. To become a senior member, one must have at leat three different species of big game animals listed in the record book.

FYI, there are several additional requirements for advanced membership not related to the records program.

It doesn't exist for record books yet membership, or degrees there of, is determined by book entries.

Hmmmmm

+1...... :rolleyes:

BTW......This change will officially go into effect on August 1, 2014, as new Fair Chase Affidavits are created and distributed to our corps of volunteer official measurers. The change IS RETROACTIVE—meaning that animals previously taken, as well as those taken from this point forward, will now be eligible to be entered into the Records.

The VAST majority of P&Y members are Associate members. The VAST majority of record book entries come from Associate members and non-members (that's right, you don't have to even be a member of P&Y to enter an animal.)

Regular and Senior membership takes an entirely different level of commitment.

Associate members are not eliglible for regular membership until after 14 years of Associate membership. Tack on another 8 years between Regular and Senior membership.

i.e. They only want Regular and Senior (voting)members that have demonstrated long term commitment to the club. Yes, part of that commitment is participation in the records program. There are several other requirements as well.

Where the money goes:

2013-2014 P&Y Grants (totalling nearly $100k)

National Archery in the Schools Program
P&Y/NASP Equipment Matching Grants
Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation
US Sportsman's Alliance
Jack Creek Preserve Foundation
Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies
Archery Hall of Fame
"Boone and Crockett Country" TV Show
Conservation Leaders for Tomorrow
National Bowhunter Education Foundation Project STAND
Hunting for Tomorrow Foundation
Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks Department elk research
Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance
Kicking Bear Foundation
National Conservation Leadership Institute
Orion - The Hunter's Institute
Mianus River Gorge Preserve, Inc. deer management
Primero Conservation jaguar study
Conservation Force
Center for Wildlife Information
American Wildlife Conservation Partners
Quality Deer Management Association
Arizona Game & Fish Department Deer Study

After reading this thread, I clicked on the link and found the rules of fair chase for P&Y under the following heading.....


The term “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

Within those rules I found this.....

By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.


Does the above rule include game cameras used for scouting?

Perhaps some of you involved in P&Y could say whether it does or doesn't?

Just curious......

Be it P&Y, B&C, the Hoosier Book or any other "record" program, I believe they are detrimental to the sport of hunting. It's simply the wrong focus, the wrong approach and creates a negative influence on the sport from a variety of angles. I don't mean to be critical of those who enter animals in a record program or those who pursue animals viewed as being record animals but the programs themselves are not a good thing in my personal opinion.

What I find odd about so much of the rules related to electronic is that a person can contract with a guide who does pretty much all the scouting and setup for the hunter and all the hunter has to do is show and pretty much shoot the animal, yet that is considered ok for record book entry. That is much less hunting then the use of the electronics in my opinion.

The use of trail/game cameras is not specifically prohibited. That said, how one uses the camera could potentially violate fair chase rules.

The fair chase affidavit is an honor system document. Cheaters will cheat....regardless of the method used. Improper entries get removed from the book on a regular basis...but they don't all get caught.

I've understood it as long as the trail cameras don't send the pics to a computer or phone in real time they were OK! So the guy that goes out swapping SD cards is fine from my understanding!

FYI,

REGULAR MEMBER

Requirements:
1. A member shall be a general Member for fourteen (14) years before being eligible to advance to Regular Membership.

2. An applicant for Regular Membership is required to:

a.) Attend at least one biennial convention or exhibit sufficient Club involvement (i.e., measurer, committee member, volunteer, etc.), AND
b.) Exhibit sufficient participation in at least two (2) of the following categories:
1.) Club involvement (if not used to meet requirement “a”)
2.) State/local bowhunting organization
3.) Mentoring
4.) Conservation activities
c.) have taken with a bow and arrow under the Rules of Fair Chase at least one adult animal of each of three (3) of the various species of North American big game. One of these animals must be entered in the Pope and Young Records.

3. A candidate’s application must be “sponsored” by an existing Regular or Senior Member.

4. The vote on new Regular Members, by the voting membership, will be a “Yes or No” vote (i.e., no “abstain” option). The applicant will need to receive “Yes” votes totaling at least 90% of the returned ballots to be accepted as a Regular Member. If an applicant receives less than the required 90% “Yes” vote, he/she may reapply in three years.

5. Applicant must, in addition, demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Board that he or she possesses those characteristics of good sportsmanship and character consistent with the objectives and purposes of the Club.

6. The number of Regular Members will be unlimited in quantity.

Procedures:
A Member may initiate the advancement process at any time, by requesting, completing and returning (to headquarters) a Regular Member Application. The application can be completed whenever the applicant has met the participation, “hunting” and sponsorship requirements for Regular Membership. Once the application is received by the Club, the member goes on a “waiting” list until such time as the “seniority” requirement (14 years as a Member) has been met.

Once those steps have been taken, the candidate is then prepared for the “peer evaluation” vote by the existing Regular/Senior Members. A resume is completed by the candidate, which includes expanded descriptions of participation and two essay questions.

SENIOR MEMBER

Requirements:
1. There will be no automatic advancement (i.e., after a certain number of years) of a Regular Member to Senior Membership.

2. The advancement from Regular Membership to Senior Membership can occur after eight (8) years as a Regular Member, provided the longstanding “hunting” requirements (animals) are met AND additional participation criteria are met AND the candidate is approved by vote.

3. An applicant for Senior Membership will be required to:

a.) Attend at least two biennial conventions, AND
b.) Exhibit sufficient Club involvement (i.e., measurer, committee member, volunteer, etc.), AND
c.) Exhibit sufficient participation in at least two (2) of the following categories:
1.) State/local bowhunting organization
2.) Mentoring
3.) Conservation activities
d.) Have taken, with a bow and arrow, at least four (4) different species of North American big game
e.) Have at least three (3) different species listed in the P&Y Records Program

4. The vote of new Senior Members, by the Senior membership, will be a “Yes or No” vote (i.e., no “abstain” option). The applicant will need to receive “Yes” votes totaling at least 90% of the returned ballots to be accepted as a Senior Member. If an applicant receives less than the required 90% “Yes” vote, he/she may reapply in three years.

5. The number of Senior Members will be unlimited in quantity.

Procedures:
A Regular Member must apply for Senior Membership by requesting and completing an application. A Senior Membership Committee (made up of existing Senior Members) will review the application to ensure minimum participation requirements are fulfilled. Once the time requirement has been met, the candidate’s name is sent on to the existing Senior Members for vote.

Just to articulate how silly this stuff becomes though, then a buck taken at the same spot where the camera is that sends photo's immediately over the phone or computer but never had a photo taken of it is ok, but a buck with a previous photo on that camera isn't? Or, if a wireless camera is used anywhere on the property being hunted then the whole property is eliminated from entry? It's all just goofy.

Delaney That's why I asked the question. I don't care spit about P&Y and I'm not a huge fan of cameras. But I know some hunters want their names in those books. And the P&Y rules are about as clear as mud when it comes to camera use and many hunters use cameras today.

"Ethics" is commonly described as the actions one takes when no one else is looking.

"Gray" answers are alot more common than "black and white"....and more often than not, the "mud" is a product of one's own mind.

Excellent points pav. I've entered several animals of several species into P&Y, and never had any problem understanding the P&Y rules of fair chase. They always seemed crystal clear to me after reading the fair chase affidavit and other relevant information.

X2

I emailed P&Y and received this response in regard to trail cameras....

No problem with a trail camera as long as the camera doesn’t transmit an image to a computer or cell phone. If you need to go out to the camera and retrieve the card or photo it can be used.
Thanks,

-----------------------------------------------
Glenn Hisey
Director of Records
Pope and Young Club


My thanks to Mr. Hisey for clearing that up.

And I still think it's goofy that a transmitting camera is not allowed. PAV, "mud" is frequently the outcome of not well thought out policy and leaves a great deal of ambiguity and illogical explanation. Much of which happens in all facets of life today, in that people or organization explain why something can be used but refrain from explaining why something can't be used.

While many may agree that it's a bit "goofy", I guess this falls under the catch all of "their club, their rules".....

Dave, not sure why you think a transmitting camera that delivers pictures to your phone in real time isn't different from a camera you have to pull your card to check. Seems pretty obvious to me. However, obviously if you're in a different location than the real-time camera it can't give you an unfair advantage.

I do believe this rule change has a lot to do with cash flow, but they are a business as well as a tradition of Bowhunting. Without Pope & Young (and others) pushing I don't believe we'd have a lot of the archery interest we have today.

I think there will always be great interest in archery and the key is to continue to introduce archery to the youth and provide access for people to hunt. In regard to the cameras, a guy that lives near and checks his cameras daily has a lot better edge from his cameras then a guy using a Covert Black Ops that lives two hours away. But I certainly agree that the club can create whatever rules they wish as do other organizations. I love the idea of tradition but also realize the world changes.

I am going to have to disagree with this statement.

Tracking up the area with human scent while checking cams frequently provides quite an education for the deer. I think the misuse of cams is a big reason some hunters don't see/shoot deer.

I got an idea.. How about just go hunting...

False....

Anyone that believes you can track in and track out daily to get a "valid" idea on what deer are doing in that area, and it becomes an "advantage".......simply does not understand how deer become educated to that process VERY quickly, and will change their behavior around that area of "disturbance" quickly. That theory "sounds good to type" from those that don't understand deer and how they pay attention to their environment........but in NO WAY reflects any truth of that "daily opportunity" to be some sort of "advantage" when using cams to monitor deer behavior.

Gotta love "expert opinions/facts" though.........

Next....

I've been running multiple trail cameras for over a decade now. During that time, I've killed two bucks that I know for sure had been captured on trail cam alive.

In 2008, I killed a decent 8 point the last Sunday of early archery. Two days later, while pulling the trail cams, I discovered a live photo of my buck taken roughly 36 hours before I shot him. Of course, that photo in no way led to the demise od said buck.

Then, November 1st of last year, I got a trail cam photo of this buck tending a scrape in one of our food plots.

The next morning, poor wind direction kept me out of that particular section of the farm. Just after daybreak, I spot a buck working through the timber some 80 yards out...headed the opposite direction.

I grunted and he stopped. Turned him with a snort/wheeze and reeled him in with a tending grunt. Less than 24 hours after the trail cam caught him in the scrape...I was putting a tag on him.



I had absolutely zero concerns entering this buck in P&Y.

Simply don't entirely buy your explanation Dew. I would agree that some deer modify their behavior but during the rut I would argue that many bucks, including some mature bucks, overlook or ignore intrusion, even daily intrusion. Certainly not worth arguing about but your absolute approach simply doesn't hold true all the time. There are too many guys that hunt small woodlots almost daily and kill some very nice bucks in those very small woodlots. The other point I would make is that I follow a couple of outfitters in Kentucky and during deer season they run a lot of hunters through their operation and have guys in the stands and woods almost daily and their clients harvest a goodly number of nice bucks, some B&C. Certainly some bucks, possibly a lot of bucks, change behavior but not all of them and not all of the big matures.

Dave,

Two things....

First, with all due respect, both of your scenarios are anecdotal at best. Big bucks become extremely nomadic during certain periods of the rut. Unless your small wood lots guys are killing big bucks in the same small wood lots where they have been capturing the those deer on trail cams....it doesn't mean squat.

Same holds true with your outfitter friends. *IF* they are killing some mature RESIDENT bucks, I would bet the house they go to extremes to minimize human intrusion in their hunt areas.

Second, I know you are a master of debate, but are you seriously debating Dew regarding mature buck behavior? Kind of like bringing a knife to a gun fight...isn't it?

Paul, often the small woods guys have these bucks on cameras. And, the outfitters run cameras a lot and post some of those bucks on Facebook often before they are killed. Now, admittedly not all those bucks get killed because some go nocturnal or nomadic. I give Dew, and others, all the credit in the world for the bucks they kill but that doesn't mean what your suggesting necessarily. What I believe it dies mean is that they are extremely good at managing and growing big bucks on properties they manage. Frankly, my guess is that there are guts who only kill two or three year old bucks that are the most mature buck around where they hunt and have many times more hunting pressure and are much harder to kill them some trophy bucks that guys kill that are one of a number available on their properties. I would imagine that guys like Dew could harvest a mature buck every year pretty easily because they are great at managing the property regardless as to whether they are great students of hunting technic or not. But yes, while some mature bucks get used to seeing people or farmers daily and don't totally change their behavior, I would agree that many bucks do especially those that don't great that daily exposure throughout the year. So, only going straight to a trail cam and not walking all over the place where you hunt I don't believe is as intrusive as what sometimes seems suggested at least on many properties.

Now I'm confused...

First, it sounded like you were downplaying the affect of human intrusion on mature buck behavior. Now, hunting pressure (which is human intrusuion) has made two and three year old bucks harder to kill. Are you implying the deer actually have to be shot at to educate them?

Second, it is my opinion that a mature buck is a different animal in comparison with the rest of his species. To be successful with any degree of consistency...the hunter has to adapt. i.e. Regardless of the trophy potential in an area...if you attempt to hunt mature bucks using the same tactics as any other deer...any other deer is likely what you are going to get.

Managing property is certainly an advantage to growing big bucks, but when it comes to actually killing those big bucks...one has to figure the big boys out..without tipping them off.

If killing a big buck was as easy as simply hunting where they live...every deer hunter in Iowa would have a wall full of trophy bucks....yet they don't.

We may be kind of splitting hairs a bit Paul. Where I was at a few threads ago was I don't buy it is an absolute and human intrusion on all deer. I believe each circumstance is different. And, hunting a specific deer, and only that deer, also makes the equation extended. It is a two edged sword. On the one hand, if bucks were so smart and so reactive to limited human pressure, which is what I think simply checking a trail cam and getting back out of the woods is, then there would be old mature bucks everywhere and they'd probably be nocturnal entirely. Heck, in the state parks where there are people walking in manner areas of the park throughout much of the year, the deer don't leave those areas, including a lot of the bucks. If it was an absolute, the state parks wouldn't have does and bucks hanging out with people.

The definition of mature probably comes into play also. I would agree that a 5 year is probably harder to kill then a 2 year and is more influence by a lot of factors, including varying degrees of human intrusion. And your point about Iowa is a good one and it makes me wonder how many bucks are passed each year that might make a state record book program but not B&C, which I sometimes fear is the standard that is supposed a trophy buck. Again, for guys like Dew and others who target a specific buck, they have certainly up't the ante on difficulty and needed expertise to be successful, which I admire. But, how one views their wall as trophy or not trophy is still a differing of opinion and probably circumstance.

Now, all of this said, this is one thing I do know, for a fact. If the goal was to harvest the most mature buck on a property, regardless of that bucks age, I'd probably have everyone who visits this website hunt that buck before having me hunt it. I don't have the patience or the commitment that most on here have and probably am not as careful about human intrusion as I should be. The discussion, I really don't like to call it a debate, could go on at length into such things as how far a buck moves if disrupted, how southern Indiana bucks act differently (that don't see humans very often) vs. farm country bucks who may have daily exposure or contact with human intrusion and even how much intrusion (such as frequency of human intrusion such as checking trail cameras) bucks will tolerate and the difference of tolerance between age groups of bucks. Now, what would be nice though is for folks to acknowledge that there probably aren't absolutes and discuss all of this in a non personalized, non confrontational manner.