I look at these reduction threads and can't help but be a little amused. Some of us tried to tell you guys for years the way the herd was heading. I started several threads years ago posting stuff about the issue only to hear they are over populated or learn to hunt and etc.

Now I've seen many of those same folks complain about lack of deer. There are still several here that are so pro dnr/legislation they will do whatever they are told blindly. In the next couple years it is gonna get worse. The ones that have the means and spend time on their properties to see what is happening will be fine.

I killed 3 does this year off one bow only managed property and saw 19 and 17 on my last two hunts. Unlike what I will probably be told or led to believe, none of them were malnourished and there was no browse line in the area, Haha. We improve the habitat and make decisions based on what we have as our own goals not what we are forced to swallow.

I feel for the guys who have no other options but to hunt areas they can't manage with the brown and downers who follow the guidelines of the kill em all legislation.

I'm sure I will be flamed for this post but I don't care. The same guys will be griping in a few years and jealous of the guys who've planned ahead not needing copy and paste posted links from politicians to tell them how their deer herd/wildlife are faring. If you are conservation minded and on your property year round you should know more than any indy NRC board.

I agree. It's really a parcel by parcel basis. We all know where the largest number of deer will be....where the least amount of pressure is. Stop shooting so many where you hunt, and numbers will incerease. It does suck that neighboring property owners let "brown and downers" hunt, but you can only attempt to control your spot.

Great Post....

Great post Cody!

It isn't government, but the hunters who can't help but "put the booger hook on the bang button"!

We have built a generation(or two) of deer hunters that are trained in quantity over quality.

I think "man points"(or ball size) are given to those who kill the most deer.

I agree, those who truely manage deer on the properties they hunt will continue to have good seasons in the near future. Others will complain as they continue to kill the "golden goose".

Your completely wrong about "man points" given for the most killed. Fifty years ago maybe. In this day and age it's all about antlers. I have never seen any books or records being kept for the most deer killed by a hunter , but many for deer with the most bone sprouting out of their heads

Yep..seems to me the OBR has backfired.

Blackoak.....I have seen first hand up here and in other areas of this state where # of deer shot trumps the size of rack on the head. We have large groups of Families and large groups of Friends in our area that have annual contests on who can kill the most deer. There is even a group out of Mentone Indiana in Kosciusko County that calls themselves "Whitetail Destruction" and has a website named as such you can view. A few years back they had a banquet for this group and hundreds attended. Just Google up "whitetail destruction Mentone Indiana" and take a look for yourself.

Instead of saying Joe isn't right about what he typed....maybe you should call the "Whitetail Destruction" guys and give them a piece of you mind. There are contact phone # 's listed on that website.

Man cards and Man points are worn proud by many for the number of deer they shoot. Joe is correct on his assessment.

I have to agree that there are a lot of "guys" out there that enjoy the rush of shooting as many deer as possible and it really creates issues in localized areas.

Hunters ed course teaches you the 5 stages of a hunter. Most hunters mentality towards hunting changes as they age.

I would wager to bet that those who go crazy mad after being told(asked)to laying off shooting does are of a younger age....for the most part.....HH is correct.....I know at 55, I'm in the final stages...method and sportsman stage....I enjoy just hunting and the how too's and shooting a big deer more so than quantity.....

I am just the opposite Jeff all this BS about growing and shooting Bigger Bucks growing and managing Herd for bucks Has just about ruined Deer hunting for me if I had not acquired a taste for Deer like I have I probably would not even Hunt I deer Hunt Like Cattle farming now Leave the Bucks alone they dont Taste good IMO and leave the older does alone they are better breeders and shoot the young ones BB or Does doesnt make any difference to me any more. They are the good eaters Like in cattle protect the brood and eat the surplus young

I would recommend some strong critical thinking towards the validity of the "5 Stages of a Hunter" fallacy.

I have become strictly a buck hunter. I have not taken but one doe, a road injured doe off the farm in over 10 years. I usually go about 3 or 4 years between bucks. It would be nice to be able to shoot a doe every year (between bucks) without feeling guilty about it or wonder If I did the right thing. That is the reason I only hunt for a buck. People wouldn't think that a county only having ONE bonus permit would have that kind of impact. It does! What people have to remember is does are not just getting shot on bonus permits! I have been dealing with this issue for over ten years now. Like others, I tried to warn people……. I don't care about season lengths or weapons. It can be cured by getting rid of the permits. But to go back to an "A" county or a 0 county will be impossible I'm sure! Its a good thing I have other hobbies, because it is LONG time before it gets any better. And, I'm too old to wait!

I usually shoot 1 doe early if I can and then buck hunt. Having a young hunter my goals and hunting has changed. He has the green light for now to shoot anything he wants. As he gets more mature I am sure things will change.

I have not shot a buck now for 2 years. I am okay with that as I want to shoot a specific age deer. Just my preference.

We eat 3-4 deer a year. Only one deer was shot off the properties I hunt by us this year. A young doe early and my 1st bow kill in 2 years. The other 2 were draw hunts. For every deer I take off the farms I hunt is that much less for Luke to have a crack at.

100% agree Cody. Glad somebody else spoke up.

This continues to lead me to say that this is a micro view of what the challenge of the DNR is. Everyone is different, everyone wants something else, managing means one thing to one guy and another thing to another guy, A trophy has a different meaning to each person who steps in the woods. Now, these same situational arguments happen between sportsmen regardless of species be it ducks, turkeys, bass fishing, muskie fishing and who knows what else. I know that not many feel kind of sorry for the DNR, but when you think this through, even without the influence of those who don't hunt, I still feel that they are in one ridiculous situation.

We all hunt for different reasons and with different goals. I don't judge anyone for what they choose to shoot or don't shoot. It sure is not a 'numbers' competition for me.

I hunt for the experience, time spent with family, and pure enjoyment, the meat is a nice bonus.

I try to kill enough deer to feed us for 12 months..then repeat. I had my freezers full by Oct 8 (crossbow is batting 1000) this year with a little extra to give away to some folks in need.

Big bucks are nice, but the worst tasting deer I have ever had was the biggest oldest buck I have shot.

Nothing tastes like a nice tender yearling...I will leave the old tough gamey ones for you guys. =)

well said, Dave.

Any of you young guys interested in going to school to become a deer biologist??

4 years for the BS Wildlife Biology degree, 3 for the Masters degree.

And a few thousand keyboard warriors and "arm chair wildlife biologists" think they have the solution for the deer herd and you are a moron.

And you make $39K/year =)

I don't think it matters what you hunting theory is. Trophy hunter or meat hunter, both want an opportunity to be successful. It takes does to accomplish this. Overkilling them clearly leads to less success.

I really like what Bean said. I have not killed a deer on my lease in 3 years. However, 4 have been killed by youth hunters. While several of the surrounding properties have brown and down mentality. Between them and the 10 killed on the road this year, I don't think I need to pull the trigger.

I wonder how much deer predication by coyote accounts for the loss of deer populations.
Maybe need to look into allowing year round coyote hunting for low population areas.

I believe you can hunt coyotes year round with landowner written permission.

Many of us have laid off the trigger finger, manage our properties and yet the deer numbers continue to slide downslope despite our efforts.

Unless you control a pretty vast acreage, your deer population is at the mercy of your neighbors killing habits, and they are not going to quit whacking big numbers of deer until the rules are changed and force them too, or until there are no deer.

Probably not as much as you might think... I bet EHD kills more per year then coyotes do...

With more and more recent studies done and from what I have read and heard from biologists, coyotes are becoming more of a major factor in certain areas in deer predation. I think 76Chevy posted some info on a recent study done in SC that really showed how coyotes are hurting their deer herd. Grant Woods emailed me study done by one of his students and it showed what happened when coyotes were targeted and how id helped fawn survival. I know states are different and all with different habitat, but what from I read coyotes are becoming more and more a problem.

I'll take that bet! Rush county has a very low to no incidence of EHD. But the coyotes get their share……FACT.

That is what my degree is in, and when I got finished you didn't need a masters, and started out about $19,000.00 a year……after you waited 3 years for a position to open. I'm sure glad I didn't pursue that now! In a western State, its probably a good gig.

I agree on the coyotes, and they DO take down adult deer...esp in deep snows.... a 1st year fawn dosnt stand a chance in deep snow at all..... I was at JP today sighting in the 22-250...time to kill some 'yotes !!....talking to the (name withheld by request) he said they had one of, if not their worst year ever on deer....He said they had allowed bonus tags on limited basis for the last several seasons....they may not allow any next year, but he is unsure of the late season antlerless, they allowed only 1 bonus per person for that time frame.....he dosnt like it

I am not interested. I will say I would much rather value the opinion of someone who has been an avid hunter and conversationist of numerous years as you call an "armchair biologists" over someone who got a sheepskin for 7 years of listening to liberal professors.

But then again I'm probably quite a bit different from most of my generation as I put an emphasis in common sense and work ethic over a college education any day. I have a BS degree and I will say that is mostly what it is BS. Sure there are those who work hard and the degree supplements them but there are many more who are college educated idiots. Agreed it may be a necessity but it isn't the be all and end all.... as it is often viewed by some. JMO

You da man Cody!

No your opinion is spot on cause I feel the exact same way... Majority of people I work with are college educated are so stupid that they couldn't pour water out of a boot if the instructions were on the sole and I am convinced that if they were an animal that they would be prey because they are too stupid to be a predator...

Sorry back to hunting...

Oh don't get me wrong bean and yaz about coyotes taking their fair share because they do... But in some areas coyotes may not be the biggest factor for lower deer numbers besides over hunting....

That is why I love seeing you guys that trap nail those SOB's...

Killing a deer is a piece of cake. Management of the herd takes some effort. I didnt shoot a single one this year. I could have but I could have. Guess that makes me a lousy hunter.. I know that the numbers are down on my place so i manage it .I live to hunt but taking care of the resources must come first. I don't need a degree to tell me when something is wrong in the woods

The south has long realized the effect the coyote has on their deer herds, particularly on highly managed hunting clubs.

The adaptable coyote is an invasive species in this area and should be treated as such.

The study Bean referenced showed using radio collared deer, that over a 2 year period, 73% of fawns were killed by predators (defined by coyotes and bobcats). Coyotes contributed to 82% of these deaths, bobcats 18%.

http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/ja/ja_kilgo013.pdf

Other studies have shown that timed removal of predators before fawning is key to fawn survival. Shooting a few coyotes from the deer stand is great, but the long term effects of this on predator numbers are insignificant. Trapping is the most effective control method we have.

Speaking of predators taking the herd down...when are we going to realize that the bobcats are a real problem and getting worse. What action (or should I say reaction) are we going to take???

Bobcats are the lest of the problem..

+1........

If you read many of the papers and are familiar with the South you would find the "cover" is the problem with fawn predation down south. Mature conifer forrests don't allow cover needed for fawns.

Read the Pennsylvania and other stusies that show the rate of coyote predation on fawns to be 48%. That is 48% of fawns that die, not of the total fawn population. That is a big difference from a perceived coyotes takes X percentage of the fawn population. Michigan showed similar results.

Again, look at the guy in the mirror, as you see deer populations decrease....... it is that guy in the mirrors fault! IDNR can do as they want with license and seasons, you are the deer manager, not Chad Stewart and IDNR.

One last thing, blaiming the neighbor as killing everything he sees doesn't wash, if you let that deer walk it has a 100% better chance of survival. If I decide to pull the trigger because a neighbor will kill it.... it is DEAD!

One word... yup...

Dead On Post.....no pun intended.

Here is another example of this truth. One of my areas I manage with 3 other guys is an area that encompasses 1,200 acres.....so that's a total of 4 deer managers in that particular 1,200 acre spot. We share trail cam pics, and ID bucks we will NOT shoot at the beginning of the season.

This area is a well known area in our County that we manage and have been doing so since 1987. We have inherited 47 other hunters on our borders/neighboring properties that we know of.....and we talk to them regularly. In the last 26 years we have only lost 4 mature deer we wanted to "make it" to our neighbors.

Think about it.......ONLY lost 4 in 26 years. We believe in the theory of "Very High Survival Odds" if we don't pull the trigger.....and it shows in Spades that theory works.

Your neighbors usually DON'T shoot what you "imagine" they will.

Just putting out data and true life experiences we have seen in one location of management.

Dew and Jb, that is probably true for your larger parcels. I would wager most don't have the means to control that high of an acreage.
Trust me smaller properties, the neighbors can flat out decimate your hunting. Granted we can help by providing sanctuaries and habitat plus not shooting etc. But the deer still get whacked like crazy during the rut. we haven't shot a doe in 8 years and end up with about 1 buck taken every other year. We have better hunting than anyone around that area but nothing like it could be and once was due to the neighbors.