This morning, on the drive to work between Seymour and Columbus, four deer crossed Highway 11 right in front of my truck. The first was a average size doe, being dogged by a beautiful mature buck sporting what appeared to be a 10pt frame in the 150" range. Behind the big buck was two smaller bucks hoping to get in on the action.

The mature buck was definitely carrying both sides. The smaller bucks both had antlers, but I could not tell if either still had both sides.

This moves the latest date that I've personally witnessed a mature buck rutting by a full two weeks. A few years ago, I watched a mature buck and a trio of smaller bucks dogging a doe in the field behind my house on Valentines Day.

The does I'm capturing on trail cam that "appear" pregnant in late July...ARE pregnant in late July.
This type of activity explains all the 40lb fawns I saw while hunting last November. This type of activity explains the overabundance of spike bucks running around (late born buck fawns).

Yes, I absolutely blame Indiana's general firearms dates for everything listed above. There is entirely too much human disruption in the deer woods during the primary rut. Thousands upon thousands of breeder bucks meet their demise on opening weekend...before they get the chance to do their job.

Breeding dates are stretched damned near into the spring. Deer exhaust their reserves while rutting at the absolute worst time of year. The winter recovery period extends well into the summer months and coyotes get to feast on newborn fawns all summer long. The late born fawns that do survive are way behind on the growth curve and compound late rut activity.

The time for Indiana to stop treating whitetail deer like vermin and start treating whitetail deer like the valuable natural resource they are...is long overdue!

The jjas's and Brew's of this State that "have to have as many weapons possible and as many days of gun hunting in the rut and "daily tallies" of how many deer get shot to keep their ego's interested" .......... are losing ground.

The pressure to get what you want pav is at fever pitch...... and it will get corrected.

In the meantime...... those that say they are responsible to the resource, but really are just responsible to their crossbows, rifles, and "deer kill billboard" #'s updated every day on their website to just keep promoting slaughter...... we'll have to watch that just bit more.

Their days are numbered......and it makes them mad they can't abuse the resource anymore......soon.

I've been shed hunting and turkey scouting on my properties lately and have noticed an unusual amount of new rubs and scrapes continuously popping up.

This is for Paul. No need for Dew to spew.

I don't care to argue so please don't take this the wrong way. I would much rather discuss than snipe. But I am not sure how this computes. Opening weekend 2017 was mostly a washout for hunting. I assume deer still breed when it rains. Hasn't our season setup been about the same as far as the rut for many years? I know we have added rifles and crossbows but it doesn't seem that impacted the harvest of bucks during the rut unless I am reading the data wrong.

Yeah,I'm pretty sure the dates and length of firearms season has been the same for at least 20+ years if not 30+,just the weapons choices have changed that I can remember,along with the County anterless quotas and the 1 buck rule. Maybe my memory has faded me though.

I have seen a basket rack flat out doggin a doe in February. And y'all can complain all you want but if gun season gets shortened I will be the guy that legally shoots everything I see. I personally believe with a shorter season more immature bucks will be taken. Along with more does just because no one will wait. Most of us I would say work our arses off just to beable to afford a license. Meat on the table is better than paper in the pocket

the buck kill has been declining, less out there so less to kill ... the gun season needs to be moved OUT OF THE RUT and shortened, as well as a youge back off on antlerless tags and make a state wide kill limit per person, 1 Buck and no more than two does/antlerless .. ... I agree with the pressure during the rut... the Does will keep recycling until bred ....

You may want to check the 2016 INDIANA WHITE-TAILED DEER SUMMARY.... :rolleyes:

I checked the data for 2012/2016 and you are correct. The antlered buck harvest is up over the last couple of seasons.

2012 - 45,936
2013 - 46,240
2014 - 45,686
2015 - 51,176
2016 - 51,783
2017 - ?

I'm pretty sure the 2017 antlered buck harvest WILL be down due to the lousy statewide weather on opening day of the firearms season. But barring unforeseen situations like an EHD outbreak over the Summer and/or more extreme weather next hunting season, I think the antlered buck harvest will rise AND the overall harvest will be back up to the 120,000-125,000 range in 2018.

I think maybe its just extra feisty bucks. I blame viagra and cialis being pumped into the streams through our wastewater Even the older bucks are able to perform late into the season.

To be clear, I did not suggest shortening any season, just moving long range weapons out of the primary rut. This type of suggestion always fueled a bowhunter versus gun hunter debate in the past, but given the full crossbow inclusion which exists today, the only thing preventing a firearms hunter from utilizing a short range weapon is the guy looking back at him in the mirror!

Well, if the main concern is getting rut back into its normal rhythm, then wouldn't it make more sense to ban ALL hunting during the rut? I would think that would make the most sense.

I would think banning hunting from Nov. 1st to Nov. 30th or maybe just have a 31 day season in October using any legal weapon would get things back to where they should be. Thoughts?

Best post in the thread....No Fake News or smoking mirrors with that post!

Paul,

Calling for moving long range weapons out of the rut is the same as saying no guns during the rut which is the same as saying bowhunting only during the rut. So it is still a bowhunter v. gunhunter debate no matter how it is phrased.

Therefore, it has no chance and only serves to divide.

John,

Crossbows are definitely short range weapons compared to firearms but I personally don't consider them bowhunting. For the most part, crossbows allow gun hunters to deer hunt during bow season. So, let them use their crossbows during the rut. It is "their" season too now.

Bryan,

Deer hunting with short range weapons is an entirely different ballgame.

First, there is no way bows and crossbows are going to knock out tens of thousands of breeder bucks during a two week rut period...let alone a two day period (opening weekend of firearms).

Second, it's not just about the number of bucks killed, it is also the disruption caused by deer drives and thousands of hunters just walking around on the ground all day still hunting and prospecting. The vast majority of guys hunting with short range weapons spend the daylight hours with their butts parked in trees (i.e. MUCH less invasive resulting in MUCH less disruption).

I could absolutely live with shutting it all down for two weeks, but I don't believe that is necessary. Limiting deer hunters to short range weapons during the rut would greatly reduce breeder buck mortality and give them a chance to do their job before gun season....without removing deer hunting opportunity. It works in states like Iowa, Kansas and Ohio. It works for other big game species such as elk. Most western states offer short range weapons during the bugle, but very few offer long range weapons during the bugle. Those that do, restrict tag numbers to greatly limit bull mortality during the bugle.

A few points...

States like Missouri, Kentucky and Indiana make gun seasons in November work....Even Illinois' firearms season start in mid-November.

Plus, we all know that shutting down November isn't going to happen. Period.

So that leaves us @ the same point we've been arguing over for the last 6 years....

Will Indiana change the start dates of the firearms season @ some point? Perhaps, but I don't see it happening as long as the firearms hunters continue to purchase/fill the vast majority of tags and as such, actually manage the herd. Even with crossbow inclusion, archery hunters are still stuck in the low/mid 20% of total harvest range, which is where it was in 2011 before the new regs took effect.

And that isn't going to get it done...

Ummmm....... so if the firearms season dates were backed up, somehow that would NOT allow the firearms hunters to continue to purchase/fill the vast majority of tags and as such, actually manage the herd?

LOL!!!

Bull crap.......... then move the long range weapons out of the rut and include short cased pistols with the crossbow and archery short range weapons........then everyone can have "THEIR" gun, "THEIR" crossbow or "THEIR" bow and have a short ranged weapon season..... no argument on weapon..... it's just a short range weapon season during the rut.

This bow vs gun "argument" carries no water Scrifes......... But it is a convenient imaginary argument that some want to keep alive so they get to hunt their buck as long as they can with a long range weapon.......and we all know it don't take 30+ days of a long range weapon to get the job done, and help the harvest #'s along....... nor does it take a rifle in someone's hand to be considered a gun when a short cased pistol is still a gun......



..........but I know you don't like hearing that....

illinois only has 3 firearm days the month of November. Big difference.

Not really....The first three days of the firearms season is when the number of hunters is @ it's highest and the shooting is @ it's greatest.

So from that standpoint, it's not much of a difference @ all...

Sure it is. Indiana has 16 straight days of gun hunting in Mid November. Way too many.

In your opinion...

Take this season for example. Opening weekend was a bust due to the weather and as such, the harvest was down substantially. The longer season allows for bad weather and gives hunters the time to get out in the woods, manage the herd, and enjoy what November has to offer.

And while you may not like that, I (along with thousands of other hunters) do...

In closing....

These arguments have been had on these subjects, on this forum, for the last 6+ years. And while I've seen lots of LOLs and emoticons and "just wait till next year" posts, nothing has changed. And seeing that we're headed into season 7 since the rule changes, it likely won't change soon. But even if it does, I can assure you I won't be crying about it 6+ years later the way some have here...

Have a good evening...

Agreed......

but some here see 3 days of Illinois gun season "when hunter #'s are at their highest" as the equivalent to 3 days + 13 more days that = 16 days of Indiana gun season..... just ask jjas....... LOL!!

But you somehow forgot to mention we all knew we were in this for a 5 year rollout when it started....... hmmmmmm....

Time went fast didn't it jjas....and "satisfaction" from the majority and the IDNR's 2.0 plan that you helped force to happen instead of the IDNR's 1st plan.... now isn't turning out well for ya as you predicted..... is it

Maybe I'm confused here. First, you were talking about the problem with the rut is because of too much hunter disruption and then added that too many breeder bucks are being killed during the rut. These are two totally different issues. If the problem with the rut being out of whack is because of too much disruption than it doesn't matter what type of weapon the hunter is using because they are still causing a disruption.

Now, you are right that short range weapons will cause less breeder bucks to be harvested and there is no way anyone can disagree with that statement. However, if everyone of those gun hunters went out and got whatever bows available and went out there then you are still having the same problem with human disruption which is the whole problem and not so much as the weapon used.

But what no one is talking about why our rutting activity is out of whack is the climate. Our Fall and Winters are a lot warmer than it was a decade or so ago. I'm going to be 40 in June and when I was a kid growing up in Northern Indiana, when it snowed, there was snow on the ground till Spring thaw. I remember going Trick or Treating with snow on the ground. Now, it isn't that way anymore. It is nothing to have temps in the 60's to even 70 sometimes in November. I recently read an article the other day and it is "projected" that by 2050, our Summers are going to be that of Northern Texas and our Winters that of Southeastern Virgina. You cannot deny that it wouldn't cause an issue with the rut because it does.

Ah yes, is because of the weather and global warming ....lol ...... dont know about you, but there have been some seasons recently that have been darn cold, this being one. I can remember it being 13 degrees so for multiple days during a vacation or two in Nov. in some recent years ... same for some cold Halloweens ... only a sane person dosnt buy into this man made global warming crap .. there is 16 days to the **** gun season, IMO, it is waaaay to long and a need to be moved back a week to 10 days ... IMO !! ... I am sooo glad I quit gun hunting for deer ...sheesh !!

I'm not blaming 100% of the weird rut activity on the climate but you cannot deny it doesn't at least have a factor in the discussion. I've been on this forum for a few years now and multiple people have talked about it over the years.

But I get it Jeff, in your world all would be right if gun hunting was curtailed and it would make everything all better, because, if the tens of thousands of gun hunters in this state would suddenly all go out and get bows and hit the woods at the same time, there would not be any issues right?

It's funny every year before gun season starts and I see guys on here already complaining that they are not seeing any deer so it can't be blamed entirely on gun hunters.

Funny that you complain that 16 days of gun hunting as being too long, but not a word about the 100 plus bow hunting days.

If I don't "need" 16 days to gun hunt (which I don't), then you, and everyone else, sure a heck don't "need" 100 days to bow hunt.

the reason that archery season is longer is because it is tougher to kill deer with archery gear... we BOWhunters like bowhunting because of the challenge... its not suppose to be easy .. so your reasoning dosnt fly ...

Doesn't matter how much harder it is Jeff and you know this. Majority of bow hunters are NOT out killing deer in December/January so why do bow hunters NEED 100 days to bowhunt?

And you still can't (or won't) answer this question. If every gun hunter went out and bought a bow and went trudging through the woods, that we would not see the same problem as Paul pointed out? It is NOT an equipment issue as much as it is a PEOPLE issue.

If you are that concerned with the rut, than why would you not support banning ALL hunting during that time frame? I wholeheartedly think it would be a good thing to ban all hunting in November so deer could do their thing, but I know the vast majority of deer hunters would object (especially bow hunters) so it is moot at this point.

Also, John was right, it didn't matter how this whole discussion was phrased, it still turns into a gun vs bow debate.

while not EVERY gun hunter is, but there is quite a number now using crossguns in the archery seasons, esp. in the earlier season so we are now seeing that influx. It didnt use to be there.. and if the crossgun kill continues to rise, say like it did in Wisconsin last season, then maybe the DNR will have to revisit the archery season length along with the other "gun" seasons and the bag limits within.... the reason, with conjecture that the fall off in late season happens is either the person has already got the deer he or she wants, or they stop 'cause of the cold...

What about the 4 wheeler/side by side intrusion? They're EVERYWHERE!!! Guys are driving around at night drinking beer...huge crowds of people driving around at night...chasing deer around for fun... What about hunters going back and forth hanging and moving stands and trail cameras? Planting food plots? I'm telling you all of this has an effect. It's ALL human intrusion and we had a fraction of this traffic in the deer woods 20-30 years ago.

Things are different now. I'm a think outside the box kinda guy...just who I am. I have a feeling that since the harvest hasn't dropped what I would call a lot, that the deer are out there but harder to kill. Maybe not the biggest herd we've ever had in our state, but if we still take 100,000 every year I think we have deer. I just feel like human pressure is the BIGGEST factor in seeing mature deer during the day time. The only time I've had any success seeing mature deer in daytime is when I stay out of an area. But if guys are going in and out constantly? Just my opinion

HS Strut +1

One would think that archery hunters (especially those who aren't fans of the firearms season) would want the harvest to rise during archery season (even if if that meant more crossbow hunters) if they wanted to make a legitimate case to shorten/move the general firearms season and/or the muzzleloader season...and have fewer counties eligible for the late antlerless season.

But if the archery harvest numbers stay where they are, it's obviously up to the firearms hunters to continue to manage the herd numbers...

Bryan78

That's certainly how it seems to go...

Finally! Someone who sees things outside the weapon used debate like I do!

The property I hunt back home my buddy and I are generally the only two who hunt (as far as I know) and we only go out there on opening weekend and that is it. I always sit out in the open field behind a irrigation tire and I have deer run from behind me without giving me much thought. They generally ignore me for the most part. I've killed two bucks this way and I stay out of the woods as much as possible as to not leave any presence behind.

When I hunt my buddy's place my stand is close enough that I do not have to walk far to it so for the most part I am not in the woods leaving my scent all over the place or any indication that I was even there. Most hunters create their own problems and then blame everyone else for it.

Well, it is the truth. Bow hunters will never be satisfied until guns are taking out of the equation.

I have both a bow and guns and I prefer to use the most efficient and effective means possible for hunting. I have killed deer with both, and I didn't feel superior or felt it was more "challenging" using one weapon over the other.

At the end of the day, I was at the right spot, at the right time, with the right set of circumstances to achieve the kill.

Then it's the BowHunter trying to dictate how everyone must hunt....SMH

Fear not, according to the FWS "2016 National Survey of Fishing, Hunting, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation Report", the number of hunters decreased from 13.7 million in 2011 to 11.5 million in 2016 (16% decrease) so if you want fewer hunters in the field, your getting it. Especially when you consider how low our new hunter recruitment success is. We're all getting older and dying off.

So you won't have to share any more...assuming you live long enough.

I believe the numbers. Public land seems more crowded than ever and ever fewer hunters are hunting larger tracts of managed or leased land.