Jason; Ten years,five years, even a year ago my opinions did not matter,and they don't influence policy today. So no I have have no need to answer all those questions. I do have the solution for individuals who Truely care for their long term hunting experience.......


Buy and or lease as large a tract of land you can afford. Form neighbor alliances on management goals. After that hunt and enjoy.

As things continue to decline you and others continue to change the factors/cause, it is your responsibility not mine to find answers. The paragraph above is/was my solution, it works for me every year, the only thing I can't control is EHD today.

Thanks for your candor. I appreciate it.

Well you can look at the numbers and try to determine what the size of the deer herd is, but I think that you also need to consider how long the season is now compared to 10 years ago. In addition to that consider all of the advancements that have been made to the equipment now-a-days. I'm thinking that the deer herd is much smaller than what the state will admit. Then you have the insurance companies complaining about car/deer accidents, and saying that they are getting too many claims. But they won't come out and tell you that they 50,000 more licensed drivers on the road.

John got it right.

I killed one doe in archery season. Passed many small bucks. Did not see the buck I was after in gun or ML season. got the tag in my pocket still.

So what is the question? It seems some are claiming the lower harvest is due to less deer and others are saying it is weather related. Is there a smaller deer herd or not.....

In some areas there are less deer and some areas it was weather. I think it is tough to manage such a diverse state as ours. The majority of public land and best deer habitat are in the south while most of the population is in central and northern Indiana. So it makes it very difficult to balance hunter opportunity and nonhunter opinions on deer human conflict. The DNR is in a no win and probably has to keep the entire state in a reduction mode even if the northern half is below capacity and the southern half the pressure is not spread out enough making pockets look like there are less deer.

Js2397, I think you are on the right track, and I look forward to seeing the county harvest data so as to compare the numbers from last season to the current season.

I'll take it a step farther....I think that if not for the lousy weather on the opening weekend of firearms season, we might have have topped last season's total harvest, this season. What do I base that on? The rough data posted so far...

Early archery was up by roughly 5,000 deer over last season.

The last 14 days of the firearms season was up roughly 8,500 deer as compared to last season.

The muzzleloader season was up by roughly 2,000 deer over last season.

Will the late antlerless be up? I don't know, as there are fewer counties eligible this year, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

Does that mean I think that every county will be higher or that there aren't any problems in any counties throughout the state? Of course not....

But if lower deer numbers were as WIDESPREAD an issue as some feel they are, I can't see how the overall harvest numbers would have climbed to the levels they have @ this point of the season after several years of herd reduction.

Herd Reduction plan started in 2012

Thanks Brew......... so the REAL damage that has been done is not exactly as John Scrifes has reported. "One Year" math as he put out there is a clever way to obfuscate what has really happened since 2012. If you take 136,000 deer in 2012 and in 2017 we take around 110,000 deer........ that's a 20% reduction in our harvest from where we started (and will continue to plummet with the same regs in place since the damage compounds over time). And 2016 shows that 75.5% of that harvest was taken with some type of a gun.

Now.......... you tell me.......... do we have a BUNCH less deer? Do we have a BUNCH more days to hunt them with a gun (30+ days)? Do we now have all the weapons we want with a BUNCH more range? Do we have a BUNCH of people sick of what has happened?

Hornharvester was right......... reduction in gun days is coming to a town near you.

The truly sad thing is this 20% reduction in our harvest is not evenly spread out. Some areas are well over 50% reduction while some areas remain steady as they are being protected from the IDNR "Madness Regs". The areas of over harvest continue to plummet, and reduce hunter participation.......and the areas that are protected from this craziness are managing to survive, but much smaller in acreage than those large vast parcels that are shot to pieces.

Bottom line..... the "managers have deer"...... and a huge portion of the state is shot to H E L L ..... and you wonder why the majority is going to rise up against the weapon/season that is causing the most damage.

SOOOooo, firearms was up, so how could it be the weather ? ... couldnt have been because of a longer range tool being used? like rifles could it .... nah .... and archery up, it couldnt be because of crossguns could it... nah .... just ignore the man behind the curtain ..

Archery was up from last year and crossbows were legal then, doubtful they were responsible for the extra deer killed. Most likely due to the extra days in early archery season.

Firearms harvest was down could be because of the man behind the curtain who knows.

Muzzleloader harvest was up I have no idea why maybe because crossguns, rifles, men behind curtains.

All I can say is that the past couple years for us has been bad. I feel pretty bad for Luke but know that hunting is well - hunting. I have been hunting the areas around here since 2003 and the numbers have never been this bad. I think the reasons are:

1. Numbers are way down and yote numbers are way up. With numbers down every single fawn/deer kill by coyotes makes a difference. We don’t have a lot of huge cover acres. Wood lots and drainages mostly. We did not see one fawn this year with the mature does. NOT ONE. No one will convince me that the does we seen were not bred or that coyotes don’t make a difference. We summer glass almost every evening from the roads and run several cameras. We had more coyotes on cameras than deer.

2. People shot too many deer and we have an influx of Amish around us now. More every year. Some of have started coming together and saying enough of shooting the does. We can only control some of our area but some are starting to make wiser decisions.

I am a little worried about Luke getting burned out with not seeing deer. He hunted every day but 7-8 days from bow through gun season and went 21 days without seeing a deer. If this continues I bet Indiana loses many younger hunters.

The longer this thread gets the TRUER theses words are.....

NO "man behind the curtain" here.....

Bean,

Sorry that you are having troubles. Especially for your son. I have seen a lot more deer down in Monroe Co. on properties around Lake Monroe. A few years ago we had a lot of coyote sightings, more than deer. Someone must have started taking care of that because the opposite is true now. I tried killing them but they are smarter than me Also saw a lot more deer in Jackson/Washington SF this year.

If you aren't already trying other spots, you and your son are welcome to come down south and try some of the areas I know have some deer. They are tough to hunt but they are definitely fun. It would be a blast in this snow. Glassing ridges, looking for bedded deer. Camping might be a bit cold this weekend

Don’t the numbers on everything up just about zero out the Opening day down?? , Making it a non issue ??

^^That my friends is 100% what makes the biggest difference in each of our personal areas we hunt. I'd add in habitat work (but that could fall in management goals) but this is 100% the answer!

Some of the biggest issues up here in the North side of the state is the lack of communication between area hunters. It can greatly impact harvest decisions the more area hunters talk and share herd knowledge with each other. One can quickly realize their numbers may be higher than what the localized herd is really at due to all their habitat work and not their neighbors....often triggering those neighbors asking what is working for them? I know of a handful of neighbors that have implemented habitat work or changed their hunting tactics due to this very thing!

Educate & Communicate...the best answer to resuscitate your deer numbers.

People complain about numbers all the time, but the whole point of this was to REDUCE THE HERD...

Here are a few paragraphs from a meeting in 2011 on this very subject where the difficulty of the task @ hand was noted....As a matter of fact, the northern half of the state was specifically mentioned in the second paragraph.

If you look @ the last 4 seasons harvest data (2013/16), the numbers have pretty much stayed the same (with an average of 122,500 deer). The fluctuation between seasons is somewhere around 4%.

DNR probably will lower bonus tags but that wont do much if anything unless they take the state back to A's and 1's counties. I figure after a couple years of lowering bonus tags and that not stopping the downward slide of deer numbers they will implement Prop 1. There will be no reason not to shorten gun seasons!.....might even be quicker if license sales start to drop. Happy New Year...h.h.

Time will tell, but I don't think it will happen in that time frame.

As pointed out, the data suggests the harvest numbers appear to have leveled off and significant policy changes aren't normally made from one or two anomalies in the harvest trends. So unless/until a significant downward harvest trend (that wasn't designed) shows itself over several years, I can't see much changing.

^^^^ According to the last DNR meeting where the deer herd reduction was a topic .... The words coming out of mouths was that we are in a "MAINTAIN "mode now....

Pretty sure there was a video taken at that meeting where them words were spoken!

some guys here would be crying like little babies if all you had was the Fish and Wildlife areas to hunt, ... some here do a fair job on 'em, cause its all we have ... the pressure is intense, not to mention much lower deer numbers as some here are use to ... yea, I miss hunting private (22 years of good private too), but it is next to impossible to find a good chunk up here and I'm done driving a two hundred miles round trip to hunt a lease and I'm done paying for land to hunt...no more.. .... so I and others tolerate the F&W areas and all that go with them ... for many this is all we have, and they aint getting better either ....the property managers do what they can, and do a good job with what they have for the most part.... the hay days are gone, and wont be coming back.... I'll continue to kill deer, 'cause I work my azz off to do so, I get Elmer Fudds disturbing hunts, stealing cameras and vandalizing locations, this is what it comes down to on some of these areas.. yea, some would cry like little babies ...

I would gladly work to support regulation changes that would improve public hunting. Things like archery only areas, antler restrictions, limited gun days, would help improve these areas.

I am sure and it already looks like some are...Deer Hunting can be different for many in most cases!

If you look @ the last 4 seasons harvest data (2013/16), the numbers have pretty much stayed the same (with an average of 122,500 deer). The fluctuation between seasons is somewhere around 4%.

Jason, you have for years along with a few others preached the IDNR gospel. Your group changed the IDNR reduction plan by increasing weapons and season lengths, now when people are seeing the results you still " tow the line". We understand, it is human nature not to want to admit you were wrong.

People, the majority of deer hunters, trusted the IDNR to manage the deer herd in THEIR interest. Hunters shot and shot then shot some more until they are where we are today, regional deer desserts!

I can tell you the hunting population is p..sed and IDNR has lost support. Big changes are needed next year or we will have legislative interfearence again.Massaging numbers with excuses is not going to work.

I don't need to be involved, the day has come I predicted, IWDHM didn't get it done but others are uniting and getting organized for the push.... doing it the right way.

First of all, my name isn't jason (not that it matters), second...I don't tow anyone's line but my own.

Do I agree with all the IDNR has done? Nope. Did I agree with prop 1? Nope. Did I push for hprs? Nope. Did I push for prop 2? Yes I did and I would do it again tomorrow. Why? Because I wasn't about to watch a certain segment of hunters that paid the majority of the bills and managed the deer herd get pushed out of November to appease another segment of deer hunters without having my say in the matter. It was just that simple.

As far as the data goes that I post, it comes straight from the IDNR. I don't "massage" anything...If you disagree with the data, then your issue should be with the IDNR, not me. And while I've said in the past that I'm sure there are counties (or areas within counties) that have fewer deer than in the past, I'm pretty confident when I say that the harvest numbers that are posted by the IDNR show that OVERALL the herd is in pretty good shape or those numbers wouldn't be where they are, year after year after year.

Finally, I think any new groups that come along are going to find (like the IWDHM has) that while it's easy to question the IDNR, it's a h*ll of a lot harder to not only manage a deer herd, but manage that deer herd for ALL hunters and non-hunters alike...

Thought I'd put up the chart again that Brew put up and then tore down as the data and discussion wasn't apparently going well with the data he put up.....

Simple fix
1. Shorten gun season.
2. Move gun season back.
3. Reduce doe permits.
Hunters WILL see more deer.

Dang spell check,Jjas . I never said IDNR massaged numbers, they massage the message. It needs to fit THEIR agenda the same as your message does.

You took "opportunity" for weapons, used new hunters women and kids, for the reason. Extending seasons for opportunity and recruitment all of which never produced a positive result other than longer range killing. Then you ask me for how do we recruit. Why not ask the angry deer hunters.

I will say EVERY deer hunter should demand that license rules should be trashed and rewrote! We need one antlered deer license and one antlerless license period. These are good for all seasons. Justify today's license structure, its all about money. Deer hunting revenue is the engine that drives fish and wildlife today. Follow the money and you find the deer management ....
.

Hold on.... I didn't take anything down so stop with your usual half truths and lies your best known for.... SMH

BTW.... did you click on the dot and see what is said?

Two things according to what Brew and jjas is saying when you look at this chart......

Brew.... we AREN'T "maintaining"......we are dropping.....and at a high rate of speed!! When you figure in this years approx. harvest of 110,000 we are 20% down from where we were in 2012..... when you figure in the last 2 years, we are going to be down almost 13% than where we were in 2015 till 2017 harvest totals ............ vs just a 1% drop between the 2013 and 2015 harvest totals !!!.... Can you say we are ACCELERATING FAST to much fewer deer!!! Where the heck do you see "maintaining" happening???? :rolleyes: No wonder you took this same graph down you put up!! LOL!!

jjas...... the IDNR does not report our harvest data in "averages from several years" like you do. They report the EXACT number so we stay in "reality".....so we can see where we started, and see where we are at currently. Another attempt by you to "skew" the perception everything is just fine..... :rolleyes:

My tires hold 50 pounds air pressure.......and when 10 pounds are left I don't think "oh what the heck, my tires are still averaging 30 pounds of air......so I'll just keep driving on an "almost flat"......

Are you seriously that delusional?? LOL!!!!!

.....(please don't answer that)...

More importantly.......even with fewer deer with the fix you cited, hunters will have a larger selection of age class to choose from in the deer herd which will keep them still interested in the sport. If they are asked to sacrifice quantity......they will stay interested if the age quality goes up as a byproduct.

Right now they have neither.......hunters are getting pizzed off..... and will force the hands again of our IDNR to fix that situation. And length of gun seasons will be their target since the weapon (guns/rifles) will not be taken away.....the length of time to use it will be taken away.

The DNR said we are in "maintain" mode at the meeting they had in the fall NOT me....you need to practice your reading skills...talk about delusional :rolleyes:

You are against shortening the gun season Brew...... you drive a truck and don't want your work days in the truck to force you to take vacation should the gun season be shortened....and it gives you 30+ days to hunt bucks, and to heck with shooting does.

You put up quotes that you like that appear to "delay" the need to shorten gun season. Therefore if the IDNR says we are in "maintain mode"....and it fits your "keep gun season the same" agenda...... you're gonna put up those quotes you agree with that fit your agenda.

They said it........ you liked it....... you put it up........ I simply pointed out people like you that find quotes from the IDNR that fit your "long gun season" agenda have a BIG HOLE in such misleading words.

"Maintain Mode"........LOL!!!!

lol....I'm not no "Truck driver" you get more delusional every post you make.

You need to take up the "Maintain Mode" with DNR and others at that meeting....their words not mine!

BTW ....are you now saying we need to be shooting Does not Bucks ? LMAO

Jb,

You say "I" took opportunity for new "weapons" and claimed new hunters, women and kids would benefit...

First of all, I wish I had the power you seem to feel I've had. Did I support the youth season? Yep. Unlike many on this forum who didn't. And why didn't they? I have no idea as it never made sense to me, but many felt it was because those who opposed the youth season did so because the didn't want the kids getting first crack @ "their" deer.

Did I support crossbows during archery season? Yep. Why wouldn't I? Why shouldn't kids, women, and men who want to hunt with a crossbow be able to without having to get a doctor's excuse? Obviously I (and many others) weren't alone. Look @ the states that have approved xbows since then. Why were so many bowhunters against xbows? Again, it never made much sense to me, but many feel that like the youth season, they didn't want anyone with a xbow killing "their" deer.

And...if you took the time to go back when all this was happening you would see that I proposed a "deer license" consisting of two deer tags way before the bundle was created. I'd still support that idea today.

Finally, I've said for years that if archery hunters want the firearms season shortened/moved they would need to step up and show on a consistent basis that they were willing to help manage the herd on a larger scale than they were then or now...

And yes archery hunters include xbowers.....

Dew The DNR manages the herd by looking at trends and averages....not by looking @ one year's harvest data and that's how I look @ it as well. Geez... :rolleyes:

Also, no spotlighting at all. I dont care if you have a weapon in your vehicle or not. Shine a spotlight, you get a ticket. If you want to see deer at night, buy a game camera. Too many deer are getting poached in this state.

Ah, once again, the yearly Deer numbers/DNR sucks and I can manage it better than any one else can thread is back.

I only went out opening weekend (5 hours at most) and probably shouldn't have wasted my time doing that. I had no intentions of shooting anything this year unless it was wounded or a wall hanger buck. But it was my yearly opening weekend hunting trip back home (Fulton County) so that is only reason why I went. Could have shot a big doe with my Kar98 but she didn't meet either criteria so I let her walk.

But I digress, maybe it is because I have a lifetime license and don't have feel like I need to kill something just to show for the money spent on tags. Maybe it is because I wait for deer to actually get a decent size to them before harvesting them so I don't have to kill so many to actually have a decent amount of meat after processing. I shot what had to be a 250+ pound buck last year and I have only eaten one or two packages from it.

I don't need a shorter gun season nor do I think it needs to be shorten. I manage my hunting situations by doing some basic simple things and my hunting has for the most part is getting better all the time.