Many of the guys I know are seeing less and less deer every year. These are not bioligists, NRC members or DNR employees etc. These are guys that actually get out and live deer hunting. Most of them year round.

I think the deer population is way down in many areas for a variety of reasons (ehd, predation, liberal limits and seasons). I'm fortunate to be able to hunt in several areas of the state and all of them are down in numbers compared to years past. It seems like each year is getting worse. Fortunately the immediate areas I'm hunting is by like minded individuals who see this and we are managing for it but I know many where this isn't an option.

I'm saying all of this because I feel the increased trend for shoot all does and give guys additional opportunity is going to have a very negative effect on hunting in the near future. I have the opportunity to hunt Ohio and they are starting to experience this already. Almost every Ohio forum has members concerned with low deer numbers. I only bring this up because I feel we are starting to mirror things they are already doing or considering i.e. (late muzzleloader season, opening season earlier, allowing crossbows, considering a antlerless only early muzzleloader season and etc.)These changes will only accelerate our affect compared to theirs, as we have less deer numbers overall, our habitat is more open and our gun seasons are much more liberal.
I know there will be guys that respond with I'm seeing more deer or quit shooting does if you aren't seeing deer and etc. I think overabundace of deer are only in very restricted access areas. As far as the don't shoot the does, that is very hard for someone with small properties or those hunting public areas to control what everyone else is doing. Only a small percentage of hunters stay informed and go onto forums like this or spend all year involved in the deer hunting process. The rest believe whatever the DNR puts out and thinks if they allow so many to be killed that they are fine shooting whatever they see.

Many also say how can the harvest #s keep going up if there aren't as many deer. Here is how: Each year we are increasing opportunity and extending seasons. As this continues more will be killed each year until you hit a wall and the numbers start to drastically decrease. This is what is happening in Ohio right now and what I predict will happen in Indiana in the near future.

Guess I just wanted to express my opinion in hopes of persuading people to offer their input on these new "increased opportunity" type seasons.

I know many will be introducing new hunters to the hunting/outdoor lifestyle and it is hard to keep their interests up when there aren't many deer to pursue.

Yep...agree 110%.... I bought less deer licenses this year cause of the lower numbers...killed less too....

I welcome more time/oppurtunity to hunt.

Ive talked to a lot of guys this year..ALL but one have seen far less than in the past...Most are seeing way more BUCKS than does..Most of the guys SAY are going to quit killing does to get the numbers back up...At least I hope they do...LOL..

I reduced someones opprtunity today by one doe w my old renegade .54. My grandpa wanted a deer so i got him one!

Those crazy biologist! Can't believe they aren't listening mechanics, salesmen, construction workers, assembly liners, teachers, police officers, roofers, and othe blue collar workers. I'm not a biologist either but I do know that people complain when there are too many deer, not enough deer, or not enough "big" bucks. Pick a fight and stay with it. These are not all in one. There is too much varying habitat in Indiana to paint the state with a broad brush as deer limits/season goes. Hence the varied antler less quota county to county. And they're always changing. EHD, drought, bad winters, just plain bad luck, etc. You manage your property how you wish. Joe Blow wants to push their "management" plans on other people and for the other people to do the work or suffer so Joe Blow can "manage" his farm for "big ones". I don't believe everything(hardly anything) the state tells me. But when it comes to more biology than politics, you almost have to take what you are given. Now is where you conspiracy theorist come in with the outrageous claims of why deer numbers are down.....cougars, insurance company lobbyist, Obama, republicans, Sasquatch, etc

Not sure how you got that out of my post but I wasn't slighting biologist. I was just stating I am not a bioligist and giving my background as an avid deer hunter. In hopes it might sway someone that has noticed the same to provide comment instead of saying nothing.

On another note, if you think Biologists in our state are making decisions regarding our deer herd rather than politicians I'm not sure it is worth trying to explain anything else to you.

"On another note, if you think Biologists in our state are making decisions regarding our deer herd rather than politicians I'm not sure it is worth trying to explain anything else to you."

Spot on Cody!

I've been involved in this game since 1983(When IDHA was formed), there has been only one instance an over population, STATE PARKS! Indiana is a virtual buffet, plenty of space and cover for deer. Who doesn't want them, landowners...

If it wasn't political(not insurance, they get a bum rap) our biologist would not be managing deer as we are today.

I'll leave the Joe Blow comment alone.........LOL.

I count myself very fortunate that deer numbers on the properties I hunt in Parke, Monroe and Jackson counties are pretty high. Parke county certainly needs a higher harvest in my area. My son, brother and I will try to take 2 more does this weekend or during the special antlerless hunt. I am thankful for the extra opportunities.

It will b very interesting to see the harvest numbers in a couple months.

I saw about the same number of deer I have seen the last 5 or so years. Not as many as 15 or so years ago. No there is not an "over abundance" of deer. The state and most landowners do not want that. There probably never will be, so now that you will have to actually hunt for deer, I guess it would be a good time to learn how to do it (not you personally, but the guys complainting because they are only seeig 3-5 deer per set rather than the 20 they used to see).

Ohio, huh? I thought that was the promise land.

Great the guys can't hunt crowd joined in. I'm not talking about complaining or seeing 3-5 deer per set, that number is laughable. Two guyts I referenced
have a wall full of deer. One saw deer on five sits this year. That hunter hunts almost daily on different properties. Another saw 3 deer all year. On the best property I ever hunted 10 years ago we would drive 1 mile spotlighting and see over 100 deer in the fields from Sept to Dec, now we are lucky to see one. Now tell me a newbie being introduced to the sport would enjoy those situations. I wouldn't but I'm a diehard guy that would stick it out not sure a new guy would.
I'm not saying every area is down, heck some of my areas are not but I do believe that is the trend and I'm not nieve enough to think it couldn't spread to my good hunting areas.

I just hope the ones that are seeing fewer numbers offer up there opinions. In the end it won't effect me much ill just move areas or states for that matter but I don't think everyone has the bug as bad as me.

As for Ohio, I killed my buck in less than an hour of hunting this year but it does appear almost all areas are down in numbers statewide. Their management is still great for big bucks though.

Great the guys can't hunt crowd joined in. I'm not talking about complaining or seeing 3-5 deer per set, that number is laughable. Two guyts I referenced
have a wall full of deer. One saw deer on five sits this year. That hunter hunts almost daily on different properties. Another saw 3 deer all year. On the best property I ever hunted 10 years ago we would drive 1 mile spotlighting and see over 100 deer in the fields from Sept to Dec, now we are lucky to see one. Now tell me a newbie being introduced to the sport would enjoy those situations. I wouldn't but I'm a diehard guy that would stick it out not sure a new guy would.
I'm not saying every area is down, heck some of my areas are not but I do believe that is the trend and I'm not nieve enough to think it couldn't spread to my good hunting areas.

I just hope the ones that are seeing fewer numbers offer up there opinions. In the end it won't effect me much ill just move areas or states for that matter but I don't think everyone has the bug as bad as me.

As for Ohio, I killed my buck in less than an hour of hunting this year but it does appear almost all areas are down in numbers statewide. Their management is still great for big bucks though.

I have to agree with Cody on all of his observations and input. In no way am I complaining or concerned that I am no longer seeing 20 year on an average day, I am concerned when I average seeing deer on about 1 in 6 sits on stand! I have contacted my local DNR with my concerns and would encourage anyone who is experiencing the same difficulties to do the same. Most likely a blind eye will be turned in your direction but at least voice your thoughts and concerns.

I know that numbers are down on both of my personal properties. But im starting. My own personal management program.

Numbers were down on other properties i hunt as well. Even the land owners seem a little perplexed about it. EHD did play a role for sure

Maybe my expectations are lower. I have had several sits, even in Parke County, where I have seen nothing. To me that doesn't mean the deer aren't there. I can tell they are simply by the sign. The days where I have seen several deer (never 20) about equaled the days where I have seen none.

I know the drought radically changed deer movement in the places I hunt the most. It took me several hunts to figure out what they were doing different. In fact, they had almost flip-flopped movement patterns. Once I realized I was probably hunting the wrong winds for the spots, I started seeing more. To me that's part of the puzzle and part of the fun.

Things change all the time and unless you are very fortunate, deer don't follow the exact pattern every day.

I remember the days when a single sighting would bring folks to your house to hear the story.... I'm 60 and still hunting!

Today if young people don't see a dozen deer, "there aint no deer left".

BINGO..... "Truer Words Were Never Spoken"

I'm not saying there are no deer. I'm saying I'd rather hunt with today's or early 2000s totals rather than that of the 50s, 60s and 70s.

I give up. If hunters can't even agree they'd like to see deer while hunting I don't suppose anybody else making the legislation will give a ****.

Happy Hunting to everybody.

EXACTLY! 100% agree. Although at 34 years old, am I a "young" one still? LOL.

@CQ my comments weren't directed at you. Just happened to be your post I chimed in on.

Cody,

Don't give up. Nobody's fighting with you. Just sharing a conversation.

My opinion can be summed up like this. I don't believe there are significantly fewer deer this year than last year. It is human nature to see the past through rose-colored glasses. We remember the days we saw 20 deer a lot more clearly than the days we saw none. When we measure the present against the past, we always think about the good old days and wonder what happened.

I am sure there are areas where deer populations fluctuate. And there are certainly fewer deer in areas where overpopulation was a problem in the past. That is why we started shooting does.

We have a great, sustainable population of deer here in Indiana. You will have good years and bad years but, in the end, we are pretty fortunate.

Harvest numbers are the data that is used to evaluate trends. If these trends indicate overharvest, then limits should and will be adjusted. Trends are not year over year. They are longer than that. And they are not 5% one way or another. There are just too many variable to allow those type of fluctuations to affect policy.

And regardless of our opinions as hunters, there are many stakeholders here and policy makers have to look at them all. Each one has it's goals and data and the juggling act that politicians perform is never as simple as biology.

I`m siding with Cody as it pertains to my hunting area. I have owned my 80 acres for 20 years now and therefore I have somewhat of a history to relate to. I have seen a general decline in the deer numbers on my property over the last several years despite property improvements such as foodplots and habitat improvement.It is my opinion that disease and years of liberal doe permits have made this happen.

I am siding with cody also. I too have seen a major decline in deer numbers since 2007. I have hunted for 30 years and the last 5 years have been the least amount of sightings ever for me. I usually see 1 deer for every 6 or 7 sits. I went 11 times in a row without seeing a deer. I too have food plots water holes thick brush and the deer simply are not around. I also hunt several different areas of the county and it is the same result. I know alot of you guys on here think all I do is gripe about not seeing any deer but when a person puts in all that time and effort on stands, foodplots and everything else i do for deer hunting and then don't see much it is disheartening. They always say take a kid hunting, well if I took a kid hunting thye would lose interst in no time cause they would not see anything.

Yep.....

Unless you own a fairly large piece of property with very good habitat, the culture of your surrounding neighbors is critical in regard to how many deer will survive from one year to the next.

The DNR can and does control the herd with doe permits. If you think the herd is low in your area then lobby them for less permits.

Control the number of doe that get killed on your property to your quoto. Stop killing big older doe that have twins and triplets.

I started this two years ago and the deer numbers on my property have rebounded nicely.

Remember, just because the bonus anterless deer permits are high doesnt mean you have to kill that many. h.h.

I agree with Cody also. This is my 40th year of deer hunting around here and like others I have developed a farm with habitat for deer hunting in mind. Numbers are way down over the last several years due to heavy doe killing, and down worse this year due to EHD in the area.

My problem as mentioned above is hunters on the neighbors places shoot everything that moves, as many does as they can. This late kill em all season will hammer them worse and sure isn't needed in this county. I'd like to see Cass county go back to (1) bonus tag.

I too remember those days,back in the 60's.Unfortunately we have come the full circle.It's easy to say just go to the meetings and complain,but when you look at numbers like the first day of the first hunt at VSP,in miserable cold weather,295 hunters killed almost 600 deer,and this year with great weather less than 40 killed the last day,with the same hunter allotment,I have to wonder why biologist need our input-just look at the numbers.

Very good post. Cody you have some legitimate concerns and I imagine you are being proactive in your approach, keep on it. When Noble county was a 2 bonus and I felt it needed to be more from what my property, as well as our township was indicating, I sent some emails. I don't think I sent more than 3, but I felt that I needed to learn more so I arranged a meeting with my district biologist to walk my property, share some numbers with him. Part of it was to inquire about depredation permits, whether they were warranted or not. I spent more time "on the ground" with farmers, neighbors etc to see if I was off base, we are now an 8. Funny, but when I first hunted in '74-75 it was a big deal to see a TRACK on my land, then 4 years later, maybe see 1-2 deer all season and I kept right on hunting too, like many others here. Took me 10 years to kill a deer, I had 3 misses, probably so freaked out to actually see one close enough to kill. I am not diminishing your concerns in anyway, just adding to the "remember when" vein. As for all the changes, well I have hung back because I will continue to hunt as my property supports, very simple. I posted on another thread that I welcome more oppurtunity, not because I don't think there is enough, but because I thought it would be fun to hunt in mid-September, why, not sure because more negatives like bugs, can't let a deer hang etc., maybe it is as simple as more green, lighter clothing, it was something other than killing deer. Overall, I cannot begin to comprehend all the "stuff" that goes on surrounding rule changes etc., even if I may not tend to agree with someones' views, I trust that they have wildlifes'best interest in mind. I really don't get all worked up about Indianas' game laws, because it is easier to develope, maintain personal passion within myself and apply it to my land and hopefully it catches on to others' if it is the correct path for them. It doesn't mean I am apathetic or frustrated, what good would either of those two do, what does good is taking personal responsibility towards our own hunting and when that is done one is truly free to hunt.

Solo, I understand your approach and most others. I don't want to come across as complaining. I'm fortunate to have a lease where most in the area have similar views. I do get frustrated on my dads place though. It is in pike county where ehd hit several years ago. It drilled the population. We expressed concern several times with the dnr but they basically ignored us. Anyway I like to b able to hunt with him there but no longer feel it can withstand any kills there. I don't mind hunting hard and not seeing deer but flat out knowing I'm not going to shoot one if it would present itself is not a possibility right now with a young family and time restraints. It would be great if all hunters were like most on here and managed each property as appropriate, unfortunately most hunters don't. I won't give up, it is just frustrating hearing from some that have no idea about certain areas because they hunt their own little piece of dirt. Again I don't presume every area is seeing major declines in numbers but I do know several areas that are and I most would like to inform others that these areas are out there and could continue to grow if a close eye isn't kept on the resource.

There are plenty of deer out there. I'm only going to use my examples. I study and hunt for property as much as deer. I find and finally after 18 no thanks I get one. I go in kill a couple deer doe buck whatever next year which I practice to always go early to speak face to face with land owner is I guess there are deer here. My grandson or son or relative are hunting now so. I'm sorry. I get my stands and gone. Even had stands set within yards of mine same year. The state is full ask your neighbor who hit one in there car in April. Because people were mushroom hunting and never had a clue they jumped it. Just my take

Thanks, that clears everything up. My mistake.

Great response Cody, I hadn't blown coffee through my nose in a long time!

LOL!!!!!!!!

Whoa, not so fast Cody. I suggest you pound a quick six pack of beer and several shots of Jack Daniels and read that post again. Maybe you'll see the message hidden within. As for me, I like it just the way it is!

Haha, yeah I got several different messages out of that one.

Bingo!! It's just laughable (or insert your own adjective) how many hunters complain about not seeing any deer yet shoot the first 1,2,3, etc. that pass by them in the fall.

When people hunt with a specific herd management goal "every" property in a given area will improve. The biggest roadblock to hunters is ..... themselves! Hunters are unwilling to change! They(you and I) refuse to move to where deer are. EHD...... no problem "I" continue to hunt that county. Too many antlerless permits...... I still hunt......... it goes on and on.

When you continue to do the same thing and expect a different result......... insanity!

I would agree JB to a large degree on your comment but I do think one goofy landowner or neighbor can really create issues, again depending on what area of the state and the available habitat in that area. In true farm county, one of our neighbors called tonight following up on his previous request to coyote hunt the farm. He said he and his son counted 19 antlerless deer go into our small south woodlot at about 4:30 tonight from a neighbors woods with another group standing in our field just outside the woodlot. We had a "new" hunter and his family start hunting a neighbors property this year and they are the type of folks shoot everything that moves. So, our farm has only been hunted one day, for one hour since opening weekend of firearms season with no deer taken, except an archery doe, unless poached. Another neighbor counted almost 50 the other day. Steve, the guy who is going to hunt and trap coyotes, knows no one is allowed on the property until after deer season is over to enable the deer to have a safe place without the presence or pressure from other hunters or people. It's a difficult situation because everybody differs in their philosophy and frankly most guys who deer hunt are more interested in shooting then managing or conservation.

This is probably true for the majority but not the entirety. I know since my Dad's place has been hit by EHD we haven't take an antlerless deer in 6 years. Yet the poplulation hasn't rebounded. The neighbors have taken care of that. As they fall in the group you mention. We'd love to manage that area and be able to hunt it more often but that opportunity no longer exists there.

I hunt 3 states and several different counties so I have moved and changed the way I do things. To tell everyone that is all they need to do is impractical in my opinion. Quite frankly it can be rather expensive and a huge consumption of time. IMO not many who deer hunt can offer that type of investment.

Many guys who would like to manage the resource and their hunting opportunity will have to rely on the direction of those proposing legislation. It shouldn't be too much to ask to expect those who are paid to monitor the resource to do just that.

For me, the folks who call and "give me scouting or input reports" crack me up. Now some are fellow hunters who are keeping me up to date so to speak, but others are folks who should mind their own business because I know what they are implying. Hunters are our own worst enemy, found out recently that the landowner across the road from me eliminated ALL hunting priviledges, why? Too many dang problems with the guys hunting his property, which I can understand. I believe there was less hunting this year on the adjacent properties, which is helpful to me in less pressure, yet the population will increase due to a lack of herd reduction. I do not rely on anyone to decide what is the best direction for my property, I get and ask for input and then abide by game limits set by the state and the results have been favorable, to me it seems simple.

Delaney, I believe your motive for not hunting your farm was/is to provide a sanctuary for local deer? You make my point if that is the case, you used a management tool to improve the deer herd.

Cody, you missed my point. I'm not saying you have to go out of state, people need to adapt to the constraints around them. If EHD hurt my deer hunting(we had an outbreak 4 years ago)I would limit my hunting in the area and search out a new place to deer hunt. If antlerless permits had reduced the deer herd in my area, again I move and not kill does in "my" area.

IDNR did a survey of landowners a couple of years ago, 25% of landowners surveyed said they had never had anyone ask permission to hunt! This tells me that hunters in general are one of two things........

1. Unwilling to change hunting areas

2. Too lazy to look for new hunting ground

Money is not an issue to hunters in general, all we have to do is look at gear sales. People are still buying new gear. Let there be a new tool to hunt with and people have to have it, new camo, broadheads, a 4 wheeler. I have yet to find the person who does not deer hunt anymore because license were/are too expensive. They complain about the price but still buy them.

No one on here complains about lack of deer more than Parkerbow,(not picking on the guy)he changed this year, adapted his hunting style. He took a kayak(he had) went up a creek to a new area he couldn't reach by foot, killed a doe the first morning out. Was it luck? I think it was adapting to conditions he saw.

I don't know the size of your dads farm, If I wanted more deer on it I would only hunt the outside edges. Never set foot inside it, the deer will find it as a sanctuary. Same premise as what Delaney has done. the last Saturday of Muzzy season we took 5 antlerless deer off our farm, all gun season neighbors hunted and pushed deer into our "sanctuary". Patience, and managing the outside forces........

#2 for sure!
And the money issue ive said that for years..

Zero deer were taken at my property for a reason.. i will go elsewhere till i get the numbers right..

I picked up two more farms to hunt just last month...its teally not that hard but it does require some time and some common semse

Joe,

I think you missed my point. I/we have done every single thing u mentioned. We have 110 acres probably 65 acres are sanctuary and never stepped a foot in. It doesn't matter when neighbors shoot everything until they hit there alotment. What I'm saying is it sucks having to "adapt" and essentially not even hunting that 110 acres because we know we aren't going to shoot anything there.

Again we have adapted and don't have trouble giving ourselves opportunity. I just think it sad we have to resort to "adapting" in the ways u mention, specifically relocating areas just to have decent opportunities. It would just be nice to see a little help on the regulation side, imo.

Cody, I do understand your point a situation. Our small farm up north is only 118 acres with 78 tillable. That provides both a sanctuary and food source for the deer. Our woods are split into different ends of the property. Joe's point is correct also in that if you didn't, or I didn't, provide a sanctuary, the number of deer killed in our area would be even higher than it is. We have a 5 acre woods that doesn't get any hunting and it luckily sits at the end of our property where there is no other woods right next to it, only open fields which prevents guys from hunting it's edges. We left the property alone this firearms season, except for opening weekend, and even though we still have a couple of really nice bucks up there, I'm told staying in the five acre woodlot by neighbors up there, we still won't hunt the property in an effort to protect all the deer. So, you do make a difference although it might not be as much of a difference as you wish. But, reduction in bonus permits, and we are an 8 county, would also help some.

Dave,

Sounds silly doesn't it????, but "hunt to save the deer"!! That is exactly how I hunted last year, and this year. Our farms sound similar. Our main farm that I hunt the most is 160 acres of pasture, hay ground, tillable, and two 7 acre plots of woods, one on each end. I strictly bow hunted this year, as I still have a freezer full of meat. So, I did not NEED to kill a deer. During the early archery, I only hunted our farm a handfull of times, when it was perfect not to run deer off. I hunted a LOT less, and spent many days not hunting the prime of the rut due to the wind, and fear of pushing deer off the property. I hunted that farm only TWICE during the firearms season, and twice during the ML season with the bow. And again ONLY when conditions were perfect so as not to run the deer off the property to the knotheads next door. The Amish hunt all week, and every weekend put on deer drives. 1/2 way through the ML season, I had every deer in the whole 2 mile square section on the farm. Now, after the snow and cold hit, there are an unbelievable number of deer on the farm. Since everybody else has quit hunting, I have hunted every spare minute in the late archery. 15, 20, and up to 40 deer per sit! Even though I have NOT killed a deer, I've actually had the best season in about 10 years as far as deer sightings go. Passed a nice 130" 8 point twice during the bow season. I am still seeing him all the time, and if he makes it, should be a real looker next year. The local doe numbers were up this year. Add to that the coyote control, the doe/fawn ratio has went through the roof. Last year when the deer were yarded, there were 2 adult deer for every fawn. This year the fawns out number the adult deer by over 2:1!!!!!! So, with adjusting the way I hunt (less), and working at killing off the coyotes, it all HAS made a big difference! So, if hunting less to see more deer when I do hunt is what works, then thats what I'll do until something changes. ****.....I may even be able to take a doe off the farm next year and not feel guilty about it!!!!

Thanks Yaz!

This is what I have talked about for years, create your own deer management zone! IDNR can formulate all the rules they want but....... it is the guy behind the trigger(or string) who determines the experience.

I am blessed to have over one square mile of prime wildlife habitat to hunt. The pressure outside my property is no less than what happens all over Indiana. We don't have a square property, in fact in most places it is little more than a quarter mile as the crow flies. My east border for the most part is a two lane highway, to the north is a cattle operation of pasture and fence line, where is the hunting? My fence line! To the west we have a neighbor who hunts, "brown it is down", he and sons kill what is in front of them. Next to him is an owner who's sons try to kill mature bucks and take does to fill the freezer. Next property south, owner tries desperately to take only mature bucks as well as does. Now we get to a property owned by three women, they allow limited hunting. Tree stand in corner of fence ajoining 3 properties, another stand 20 yards from our fence, facing our property. South fence has numerous stands ALL facing our property. You would think all deer on our property are in danger. Not true.

Deer are adaptable, we do not pressure the deer, the buck I killed this year was within 100 yards of the north fence. Another buck(145") killed the next day was within 100 yards of our west fence. Security is the key!


Give them space,food, water, cover, and arangement and you will have a huntable population of deer. to me cover is the most important. Deer find the quiet areas.........

WWDD? What would deer do? Or, what would you do if you were a deer, especially a mature deer?

Chainsaw, to make small clear cuts that create dense regrowth, is a deer managers best friend, in my opinion.

I "heart" my chainsaws!!!

Yup if you build it they will come

Totally agree. I think from all the advertising everyone thinks u just need foodplots and deer will flock in. Imo those should b secondary to establishing sanctuary cover. Much cheaper to create the bedding too!

I saw these problems coming in 1990. I told a few friends we are about to enter a period in Whitetail hunting where we are going to have to create our own destiny. Most men will not control themselves.......if they would be able to.........we would have never had to reintroduce whitetials back into Indiana, let alone the Elk we lost in the Midwest due to those that ravaged our natural resources.

Most men will not change..........they shoot till they are out of game or out of bullets. Their hunting experience is not what they make of it......but what they TAKE, and simply move on then to TAKE again somewhere else when they run out of things to TAKE due to their own lack of foresite or recognition of value in the resource. The words "management", and "restraint" mean nothing to them.

With that in mind.......I built some areas in several counties I hunt here in Indiana that will give me the experience I want no matter what the IDNR says at this point. I surround myself with others with the same mindset.

We have 3 goals that are working.......

1) Build the experience we want by doing what few have the desire to do.....and repeat it year after year.

2) Accept we will lose a few on our borders. This situation is getting worse due to "TAKERS" running out of good areas to hunt now......but our cores are protected/managed and policed well.....still yielding what we want, and in most cases exceeding our expectations.

3) Wreak absolute stern biblical HAVOC on those takers that push the envelope to "illegal" behavior on our land. We have a "zero" tolerance policy, even with "first offenders". In my book, there is no such thing as a "first offender"......it simply is the first time they have been CAUGHT. And we make each of them pay via the legal system everything we can throw at them. This is working well....and we have few problems anymore......but we do not let our guard down for one second.

But this is what puzzles me the most...........the ones that say they don't want to do what we do, or regulations that will help keep in check those that have no "compass".......are the ones that would give their left nut to hunt on my pieces of dirt.

"They don't want it/our methods of hunting"........but they line up on our borders 'cause they know it works. LOL!! And they will continue to be the ones on the outside looking in.

My hat is off to those that had/have foresite........truly practise management.......and smoke those that test them with a good dose of "legal ramification" that earn it. The next wave of tension in this state is going to come from the "TAKERS" that have run to the borders of the "MANAGERS". This situation is and will continue to get worse as those with no foresite continue to be the IDNR's drones and just pop, pop, pop cause the regs say you can. This will be the next step in tearing apart hunters vs hunters and neighbors vs neighbors with ugly endings. The IDNR regs in place are just accelerating this "future hunting societal acid" in hunter/hunter and neighbor/neighbor relationships.

Keep in mind though, Life is good, Hunting CAN be good........just have the courage to be a "good guy" with "good intent", and a "stick that stings" when tested.

It works........

Mark Twain said it best......"Do the right thing, and you will please a few......and astonish many"

Something else to keep in mind.....

A recent letter had been sent to Mike Tonkovich (Ohio's TOP ODNR deer authority)on a few topics on the deer herd. I think you'll find some tidbits of info in his response letter of how DNR brass thinks (no matter what state they are from)......what makes them tic......and what we can do given the chance. Even though he is from Ohio DNR.....read VERY carefully what we can glean from his helpful words of wisdom these days............


"...This is also a perfect opportunity for me to reach out to you and those hunters that really are concerned about the deer numbers and ask – of those that received a survey, how many actually took the time to return them? I know that you were not one of them, but response rates have been pitiful and if hunters really knew how much this hampers our ability to manage our deer herd, they might not be so quick to criticize. Let me explain. You aptly point out that our harvest figures are spot on with last year. That could mean 1 of 2 things. We started the season with the same number of deer as last year, which means we’re really have no impact on the herd. Alternatively, it could mean that hunters had to increase their effort by 20% (or some other unknown amount) to kill the same number of deer, which means we actually started with fewer deer this year and if we harvest the same this year, we’ll have fewer next year. My guess is that we’re dealing with the second situation. But the key is GUESS, since I can barely get 20% of the nearly 40,000 surveys returned in any given year. These surveys will allow me to track effort and will take the guess work out of interpreting harvest trends. There is no denying the fact that hunters can mask population decreases by increasing their effort. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing this, until we get to a boiling point. I do not believe we are there, and I will make sure we don’t get there. Most of my colleagues in other states believe that because hunter’s expectations are now so high (not only in Ohio but most everywhere throughout the whitetail’s range) due to record harvests, that they will not push very hard; Couple this with the fact that deer recover very quickly, we would rather err on the side of shooting a few too many, rather than too few. So if you get a chance, post a note and remind hunters, that they are in a position to make a REAL difference simply by returning their survey. While I respect each and everyone’s opinion, we make decisions using data and I have to use the best that I have. If we continue to harvest the same number of deer, I am left to assume that we have the same number of deer." Mike Tonkovich

Where i hunt we have harvested more and seen more deer this year. We have hunted this property for 6 yrs. My 15 year old son has got 4 and i have got 3 and my dad has gotten 3 off this propertythis year. A very good year for us plenty of meat in the deep frez.

But this is what puzzles me the most...........the ones that say they don't want to do what we do, or regulations that will help keep in check those that have no "compass".......are the ones that would give their left nut to hunt on my pieces of dirt.

"They don't want it/our methods of hunting"........but they line up on our borders 'cause they know it works. LOL!! And they will continue to be the ones on the outside looking in.


Well said Scarlett

I too have seen it for years. I have preached till I'm blue in the face. They won't listen. I am literally surounded by hunters every day of the week. There are so many hunting the small woodlots on the properties West, South, and North of me, that they take turns every day of the week to hunt them! One land owner even charges $20.00 per day to drive and pick them up, drop them off to hunt, and pick them back up!!!! They then drive deer every weekend of the firearms and ML season. They have ran out of room to hunt many years ago. They have run out of deer to shoot, because they are either dead, or the deer got the He!! out.

They know where the deer have went, and I get hounded and questioned by them all the time. They even tried to backdoor their way into the property next door to us that we cash rent to farm. I'll be spending more time protecting what little I do have than actually hunting! And people wonder why I'm so against the liberal seasons/weapons, and doe permit that we now have.

Yup Yaz...well said......

Just had our first incident of the year tonight. I was doe hunting with my bow and heard 11 shots ring out on the border of one of my properties as I was getting out of my stand tonight. Long story short......an Amish guy that moved into the area a few months ago asked a neighbor two days ago if he could hunt the field south of our property......the neighbor told him he didn't own the field but he assumed if there were no pick up trucks parked at the field.........he assumed it might be OK.

That was all this amish guy needed to hear. He even told the neighbor thanks and it would just be him hunting.

Well.......guess what. He goes and gets his Amish buddy to come with him........both emptied their guns at the herd that came out........one button buck and one doe on the ground and who knows how many wounded as they shot at every running deer they could till they were both out of bullets.

As we confronted them tonight, they admitted they did not know who owned the field, said they only shot 2 times, and the first Amish that had talked to the neighbor admited he lied about bringing in friends.

Call was placed to the landowner tonight that lives in Tennessee.........charges are going to be pressed on both. We then found out that the "buddy" (second amish dude)of the first Amish guy had been arrested recently for attacking a police officer.

I'm delighted to tell you........I actually had more fun pinching these Amish Thugs than hunting tonight.

This late doe season/Any weapons has turned into a "Free For All".......I swear people will shoot till there are none left. Will be checking the woods tomorrow to see if any of the fleeing deer they shot at were hit and recoverable.

Pure Amish Thugs..........and they paid for it tonight.

Thought this was fitting for this thread.

And one more thing........if you haven't commented on the extension of our season to Chad Stewart, Your sitting Senator, and our new Governor Mike Pence..........get off your AZZZ and do it now!! Severe Damage is being done to our deer herd, and to sit silently and watch is half criminal itself in my book.

Write those letters.........

There are ways to make an even bigger statement to the politicians then writing to them if guys decide to play hard ball. But, its not an approach that most guys are comfortable with. With the Renfro Show coming up, the timing is right for an organized, focused approach. But again, I'm not sure guys really want to get in the trenches and fight. And, to do it right, it has to be where everyone gives up season length and/or opportunity.

Ok Cody how many deer are you looking at. 3states several counties. Could be why you poked at my quote and what are u looking to accomplish. Big bucks obviously,numbers,or general. You missed my point that I believe the deer are still there just moved(which) you mention. Housing editions and Human pressure. Predation not so much "in my opinion". Loved the chainsaw response create funnels and habitat. But the workin man can only do so much. Not trying to argue just understand what ur lookin at. I've personally killed 3 book makers and just missed by 2/8 on another. Lot of work involved. You can leave it alone or hash it out. My point was. The only way I got permission was by owners saying the same. New eyes come in and find sign and do the job. The next year they all are back to hunting. Learned to live with it as I was just taking 2 so I could go back to bass. But since breaking my back that could change. Like I said not a poke just a question that is why you posted it

Scarlett Dew, I respect what you do and how you and others on here do it. It's a bunch of bull when guys trespass and shoot more than their limit... You've put in the time and others want what you have. It's unfortunate.
I predicted many years ago when guys started leasing, that this would happen. Generations of hunters are being pushed offland that their family has hunted for generations. There simply isn't enough land to hold all the hunters in this state when large tracts are being tied up by a handful of guys. Then, only the guys with big money are hunting them. This is undisputed. How many thousands of acres do whitetail properties inc and companys like it, lease up and only let a few of their famous buddies on them. This is causing a ton of guys to be out of a place to hunt and they ain't happy.
I'm not saying it's right what they're doing... Only pointing out the cause and effect. Leasing is a big "cause" and overcrowding is the "effect". It will only get worse. To me it's devastating. But I'm one guy.

Again, NO OFFENSE meant towards anyone on here for doing their thing. Dew, I just used you because you wrote a very good description of your "thing".
Just giving my opinion why guys are doing what they are doing. I also believe laws only keep honest people honest. I just hate it when guys lose their land to a company who only uses it to entertain

HS Strut:

No offence to you either but, as a landowner I'll ask a few questions of you.

Who pays the taxes on my land to the state of Indiana?

Who pays the insurance on the property so YOU can hunt for free?

Who provides the habitat so wildlife can thrive on my property? It could be plowed and planted for a profit.

Just because a landowner has no mortgage does not mean he/she has no costs, we have to insure and pay taxes on ground we OWN!

We purchased property just for recreation(hunting, fishing, whatever...)why should "we" share the experience with others at no cost?

Without private ownership of land cooperating with states there would be no game to hunt. Indiana does not reimburse me for letting wildlife live and thrive on my property.

What you are seeing is called "Agri-tourism" landowners who are allowing recreation on "their" properties for a price.

Free rides to recreation on private property is over, you have three choices, own lease or hunt the public land you paid for.

I'm with Scarlett Dew.... there are no first time offenders tresspassing, I'm just the first one who caught them!

I have lost my job, I break into your house and steal from you........you don't agree with my actions, but you do understand......correct?

My bet is you would want to prosecute and protect property rights.

I get bad mouthed because I am not willing to let every Tom, Dick and Harry hunt my land, fish my lake or go "muddin", where does this entitlement attitude come from? Oddly, several years ago we received a letter from a woman who was/is the wife of a prominent business man here in town, her words "isn't it about time you sell your property so someone else may enjoy it, or at least, share it..." unreal and the nerve of some...

Solo....that is beyond unreal! That lady needs to be institutionalized!

JB,
Let me be totally clear that I'm not looking to fight. I have a smile on my face. When typing it's hard to know this.
Now, I'm the 1st one to say " it's YOUR land. You indeed pay taxes and maintain it. Do what you want with it." I don't "expect" something for free. No sense of entitlement here.

But I must counter: Why is it any different today than it was 20 years ago? Were landowners not experiencing the same costs back then? Why "now" does it have to be a business?

I see nothing wrong with paying a tresspass fee. I see nothing wrong with signing off of liability.
In my opinion this is about business. And it's LEGAL. But it's about business. And in my opinion, making it about money will help those like yourself who invested in it. But it will be the demise of hunting as we've known it.
I know that you have put in a lot of time helping hunters in Indiana. Thanks. I mean it.
Most of the time all you're doing is stating the obvious about the direction things are heading.
But,
Strength is in numbers. The more hunters and recruitment there is, the better for the future. I hoped my kids and grandkids would be able to enjoy the sport the way I did.

Loss of habitat. Leasing. Double whammy.

Don't really understand what you meant by losing a job and breaking into a house?? I never said I agreed with guys trespassing. I would turn them in EVERY time. What I was saying is it's my opinion that when you suddenly turn to a business to "pimp" out your land for money and kick off people who've hunted there for generations without offering them the chance to keep this priviledge... well, some guys get desperate. Hunting has been a way of life just like it has been for many on here.
To me, it's no different than a little league coach deciding he should be payed handsomely for his time... and hiring an agent. This agent decides that he's worth $30,000/ season. So all the kids show up at the little league next spring and find out instead of $100 fee to play ball, well now it's $5000 because the coach is risking his life driving to and from the field. AND he's gotta put gas in his car and insure it.

My guess is baseball in this country would disappear pretty quick. But hey, It's America. I wouldn't wanna live anywhere else

HS Strut:

Im always typing with a smile here and your right written word shows no emotion.

I think generational change in land ownership also affects hunters. Today many landowners have received land thru inheritance and lease the agriculture out to proffesional farmers. Money still needs to be made for upkeep and taxes, a natural progression is to hire a proffessional lease outfitter for recreational purchases.

I think this leads to a suggestion, people who have hunting permission today(free or not) must have more than annual contact woth the landowner. If you don't a lease agent might visit the landowner before seasons begin.

Leasing is not the end of hunting, in the south and west this has been common for years. I deal with several companies in Kentucky and visit with everyday production workers regularly. All of those know I hunt and we talk about what they are seeing, to a man they ALL have leases or own property. These regular folk just budget for their hunting leases. Hunter retainment nor recruitment is not suffering because of leasing. At least not in Kentucky, you don't see numbers dwindling in Texas either, the state that is all leased hunting. People adapt.

Jb is right. For many, it's a pay to play world. I'm fortunate enough to have friends who own land. I not only help out when they ask, I offer when they don't.

Im fairly select about who i let hunt
. Years ago i did hand shake deals till i had a dumbazz so lazy he wouldnt use a gate and just cut a fence and another one thought he would smoke cigars and hunt from one of my barns.. manure fire insued and it took a week to put it out.

The problem is a total lack of respect for the privledge to hunt.. old fashion decency is just about left for the history books.

On the flip side ive had the opportunity to meet a few farmers and sit and talk wirh them and offer to help out the best i could with one arm. I also plowed a few driveways and offered to make a run to the store.. i never asked to humt but they all knew i was a hunter.. end result.. new friends and a ton of new ground to hunt

Heres the secret to finding a place to hunt.... sell yourself first.. it might take a year or more but it will pay off...

Hunting is not an entitlement program!!!!...

It requires work!!!! I hope it stays that way!

I have to go back to a recent IDNR survey, then ask one question............

IDNR survey, twenty five percent of landowners said they had NEVER had a request for permission to hunt.

Question, who is working harder to get access, hunters or leasing agents?

Gundude has it right "It requires work", Leasing agents "work" for the same thing you and I do, pictures of dead Presidents. "Working" for hunting rights is no different, just no money exchanged.

Wow gundude those are some inconsiderate fools. I agree I always try to go out of my way. Even after my posts of finding deer and then getting shut down so there family can hunt. I try to always buy them a turkey or ham for holidays. Offer help with anything they might need. It helps I even got a call one year to hunt from a farmer just passing word on. I need to find my local owners who haven't been contacted. Thought I've knocked on most doors guess not. Just appreciate landowner even if they decide to not let you hunt. Lost my best 4 acres this year due to the couple kinda losing health mentally. Completely forgot I hunted after ten years but I still offer to mow and go to store if they need. Take care of them and they will usually take care of you!

Yup... its called helping out your fellow man without expecpting anything in return... if you do get something in the end its just icing on the cake.

Either way..... you win!! Think about it

Gundude,
you make such a good point about people taking advantage of landowners. I TOTALLY understand someone not wanting to allow hunters AT ALL after such an event.

Here's my rub, Now I'm not speaking of You Gundude, but MANY landowners have complained of this type of thing happening. So what do they do? LEASE OUT THE LAND To a broker. So what they're saying is: I'll put up with that same guy hunting here if he PAYS ME. When a landowner leases he loses that person to person deal. That handshake. It's now a business. So My son and I can't get permission, but it's fine and dandy for my son and I to hunt all we want if we PAY. These landowners know nothing and DON'T CARE who's hunting if they are getting PAYED.

HS Strut - I understand what you are trying to say, but certainly don't agree. I lease land to hunt on. Been on the same lease for over 10 years. We made a point to get to know the landowner right away. They know that we take care of the place like it was our own. They DO CARE who's hunting and what takes place, even though they are getting paid. If we don't respect the land, they will non-renew the lease and find someone who will respect it. Getting paid has nothing to do with what they will accept as far as how the hunters treat their land.

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just seeing it different.

I think you are wrong on that assumption. I have three leases. All of them have specific contracts stating what we can and can't do. If we disrespect land or owner in anyway we are booted, people tend to have a vested interest when there $$ is involved. There is no short list of guys that want leases. If you aren't meeting landowners standards someone else will be more than willing to stepup. Plus we carry liability insurance and detail everything up front. Which would you feel more comfortable doing if you were a landowner?

This is getting to be a quite interesting conversation.

We need to here more from those who are leasing.

This is interesting. You guys have made a couple good points.

I've been pulling my info from guys who never meet the landowner. They pay a company and the company turns them loose. Sorry if I threw everyone into the same group.

Just think if the guys who were paying the lease company would contact the landowner who is doing the leasing to the big company. NO Middle Man,,,Hmm,,,Extra money to be made for the landowner and money to be saved for the leasers.
I know most lease companies have contracts but I'm sure they aren't forever. If the leasers would just communicate with the landowners everyone could win.

I too agree most of the Free Ride hunting is over. You gotta pay one way or the other, might as well get used to it.

The contracts are not forever but an individual that has leased from base camp can never go back to the landowner for hunting rights after the lease is up

Didn't realize that. NEVER is a long time. Thanks Dale

or what, exactly?

Any attorneys on here? Would love to know the consequences?

I lease, as buying the size of property I want to hunt is currently unattainable. Leasing is great for me, yet I understand how it can impact others (I was on that side of the fence several times through the years).

I lease for two basic reasons:
1. I don't have to share my hunting grounds with anyone else.
2. I can manage the "herd" to what I want.

Do those reasons make me a bad person? Don't know, don't care. The fact remains that if the previous hunters hadn't trashed the landowner's property, I wouldn't be in the position I am today.

Ive "leased" the property I hunt on for 17 years...why, cause of IDIOTS who should not have been on the place, they are now long gone...it was way over hunted and I wanted to have a place that I could do food plots and not have some dipwad walkin on me at best light...I got sick and tired of having to drive 80 miles round trip to hunt...now I drive only 14 round trip...Now the property is hunted properly, and there is more food for the deer(even though the numbers are down). I am friends with the farmer and his family...they still duck hunt a small portion but I now control the whole 300 acres....I take care of the place and watch for trespassers and limit the intrusions...the property is better for it

I think that is the biggest bonus for the me and the landowner. He no longer has to deal with the trespassers or the constant calls from people asking to hunt his ground. Everything is referred to me.

Nothing wrong with leasing whatsoever, it can be a win/win situation.

So have a buddy do it and he can invite you

What solo said

I have leased through Basecamp and another agency, and currently have a nice lease in southern, IL with a couple buddies. We love the deal, exclusive hunting rights on a great property, all to ourselves in a good area. Cost per man runs less than a cheap five day semi-guided bow hunt, and we can go when we want, all season, plus scout and set stands, plus turkey hunt or mushroom hunt. On our present lease, we've never met nor seen the owner which is a large corporate type farm.

The contracts through these leasing agencies state that you can't go direct to the landowner and "back door" them and cut them out of their fee. Lease companies have costs to cover and they go to the work of locating these opportunities, so I don't mind them taking their cut. And frankly it would be very rude and unethical to pull a stunt like that. If you want a lease without the leasing agent, get out and find them yourself. I don't have time to do that.

I also own a nice farm set up for hunting that I share with several family members and friends. Sorry, but not much room for anyone else without overhunting and over harvesting.

A much worse problem than leasing in my opinion is habitat loss due to clean row crop farming practices ($8,00 corn) and urban sprawl. There are a whole lot less places to hunt that there were 20-30 years ago. I saw this coming, so bought ground to set up long term for hunting.

You can get into a lease pretty economically. Many of those that gripe about lease costs spend as much annually on tobacco, booze, un-needed toys and other luxuries. Hunting is not as high on their priority list.

This system won't be changing anytime soon. Still some good free hunting to be had for a few, but less everyday.