Delaney, I believe your motive for not hunting your farm was/is to provide a sanctuary for local deer? You make my point if that is the case, you used a management tool to improve the deer herd.

Cody, you missed my point. I'm not saying you have to go out of state, people need to adapt to the constraints around them. If EHD hurt my deer hunting(we had an outbreak 4 years ago)I would limit my hunting in the area and search out a new place to deer hunt. If antlerless permits had reduced the deer herd in my area, again I move and not kill does in "my" area.

IDNR did a survey of landowners a couple of years ago, 25% of landowners surveyed said they had never had anyone ask permission to hunt! This tells me that hunters in general are one of two things........

1. Unwilling to change hunting areas

2. Too lazy to look for new hunting ground

Money is not an issue to hunters in general, all we have to do is look at gear sales. People are still buying new gear. Let there be a new tool to hunt with and people have to have it, new camo, broadheads, a 4 wheeler. I have yet to find the person who does not deer hunt anymore because license were/are too expensive. They complain about the price but still buy them.

No one on here complains about lack of deer more than Parkerbow,(not picking on the guy)he changed this year, adapted his hunting style. He took a kayak(he had) went up a creek to a new area he couldn't reach by foot, killed a doe the first morning out. Was it luck? I think it was adapting to conditions he saw.

I don't know the size of your dads farm, If I wanted more deer on it I would only hunt the outside edges. Never set foot inside it, the deer will find it as a sanctuary. Same premise as what Delaney has done. the last Saturday of Muzzy season we took 5 antlerless deer off our farm, all gun season neighbors hunted and pushed deer into our "sanctuary". Patience, and managing the outside forces........

#2 for sure!
And the money issue ive said that for years..

Zero deer were taken at my property for a reason.. i will go elsewhere till i get the numbers right..

I picked up two more farms to hunt just last month...its teally not that hard but it does require some time and some common semse

Joe,

I think you missed my point. I/we have done every single thing u mentioned. We have 110 acres probably 65 acres are sanctuary and never stepped a foot in. It doesn't matter when neighbors shoot everything until they hit there alotment. What I'm saying is it sucks having to "adapt" and essentially not even hunting that 110 acres because we know we aren't going to shoot anything there.

Again we have adapted and don't have trouble giving ourselves opportunity. I just think it sad we have to resort to "adapting" in the ways u mention, specifically relocating areas just to have decent opportunities. It would just be nice to see a little help on the regulation side, imo.

Cody, I do understand your point a situation. Our small farm up north is only 118 acres with 78 tillable. That provides both a sanctuary and food source for the deer. Our woods are split into different ends of the property. Joe's point is correct also in that if you didn't, or I didn't, provide a sanctuary, the number of deer killed in our area would be even higher than it is. We have a 5 acre woods that doesn't get any hunting and it luckily sits at the end of our property where there is no other woods right next to it, only open fields which prevents guys from hunting it's edges. We left the property alone this firearms season, except for opening weekend, and even though we still have a couple of really nice bucks up there, I'm told staying in the five acre woodlot by neighbors up there, we still won't hunt the property in an effort to protect all the deer. So, you do make a difference although it might not be as much of a difference as you wish. But, reduction in bonus permits, and we are an 8 county, would also help some.

Dave,

Sounds silly doesn't it????, but "hunt to save the deer"!! That is exactly how I hunted last year, and this year. Our farms sound similar. Our main farm that I hunt the most is 160 acres of pasture, hay ground, tillable, and two 7 acre plots of woods, one on each end. I strictly bow hunted this year, as I still have a freezer full of meat. So, I did not NEED to kill a deer. During the early archery, I only hunted our farm a handfull of times, when it was perfect not to run deer off. I hunted a LOT less, and spent many days not hunting the prime of the rut due to the wind, and fear of pushing deer off the property. I hunted that farm only TWICE during the firearms season, and twice during the ML season with the bow. And again ONLY when conditions were perfect so as not to run the deer off the property to the knotheads next door. The Amish hunt all week, and every weekend put on deer drives. 1/2 way through the ML season, I had every deer in the whole 2 mile square section on the farm. Now, after the snow and cold hit, there are an unbelievable number of deer on the farm. Since everybody else has quit hunting, I have hunted every spare minute in the late archery. 15, 20, and up to 40 deer per sit! Even though I have NOT killed a deer, I've actually had the best season in about 10 years as far as deer sightings go. Passed a nice 130" 8 point twice during the bow season. I am still seeing him all the time, and if he makes it, should be a real looker next year. The local doe numbers were up this year. Add to that the coyote control, the doe/fawn ratio has went through the roof. Last year when the deer were yarded, there were 2 adult deer for every fawn. This year the fawns out number the adult deer by over 2:1!!!!!! So, with adjusting the way I hunt (less), and working at killing off the coyotes, it all HAS made a big difference! So, if hunting less to see more deer when I do hunt is what works, then thats what I'll do until something changes. ****.....I may even be able to take a doe off the farm next year and not feel guilty about it!!!!

Thanks Yaz!

This is what I have talked about for years, create your own deer management zone! IDNR can formulate all the rules they want but....... it is the guy behind the trigger(or string) who determines the experience.

I am blessed to have over one square mile of prime wildlife habitat to hunt. The pressure outside my property is no less than what happens all over Indiana. We don't have a square property, in fact in most places it is little more than a quarter mile as the crow flies. My east border for the most part is a two lane highway, to the north is a cattle operation of pasture and fence line, where is the hunting? My fence line! To the west we have a neighbor who hunts, "brown it is down", he and sons kill what is in front of them. Next to him is an owner who's sons try to kill mature bucks and take does to fill the freezer. Next property south, owner tries desperately to take only mature bucks as well as does. Now we get to a property owned by three women, they allow limited hunting. Tree stand in corner of fence ajoining 3 properties, another stand 20 yards from our fence, facing our property. South fence has numerous stands ALL facing our property. You would think all deer on our property are in danger. Not true.

Deer are adaptable, we do not pressure the deer, the buck I killed this year was within 100 yards of the north fence. Another buck(145") killed the next day was within 100 yards of our west fence. Security is the key!


Give them space,food, water, cover, and arangement and you will have a huntable population of deer. to me cover is the most important. Deer find the quiet areas.........

WWDD? What would deer do? Or, what would you do if you were a deer, especially a mature deer?

Chainsaw, to make small clear cuts that create dense regrowth, is a deer managers best friend, in my opinion.

I "heart" my chainsaws!!!

Yup if you build it they will come

Totally agree. I think from all the advertising everyone thinks u just need foodplots and deer will flock in. Imo those should b secondary to establishing sanctuary cover. Much cheaper to create the bedding too!

I saw these problems coming in 1990. I told a few friends we are about to enter a period in Whitetail hunting where we are going to have to create our own destiny. Most men will not control themselves.......if they would be able to.........we would have never had to reintroduce whitetials back into Indiana, let alone the Elk we lost in the Midwest due to those that ravaged our natural resources.

Most men will not change..........they shoot till they are out of game or out of bullets. Their hunting experience is not what they make of it......but what they TAKE, and simply move on then to TAKE again somewhere else when they run out of things to TAKE due to their own lack of foresite or recognition of value in the resource. The words "management", and "restraint" mean nothing to them.

With that in mind.......I built some areas in several counties I hunt here in Indiana that will give me the experience I want no matter what the IDNR says at this point. I surround myself with others with the same mindset.

We have 3 goals that are working.......

1) Build the experience we want by doing what few have the desire to do.....and repeat it year after year.

2) Accept we will lose a few on our borders. This situation is getting worse due to "TAKERS" running out of good areas to hunt now......but our cores are protected/managed and policed well.....still yielding what we want, and in most cases exceeding our expectations.

3) Wreak absolute stern biblical HAVOC on those takers that push the envelope to "illegal" behavior on our land. We have a "zero" tolerance policy, even with "first offenders". In my book, there is no such thing as a "first offender"......it simply is the first time they have been CAUGHT. And we make each of them pay via the legal system everything we can throw at them. This is working well....and we have few problems anymore......but we do not let our guard down for one second.

But this is what puzzles me the most...........the ones that say they don't want to do what we do, or regulations that will help keep in check those that have no "compass".......are the ones that would give their left nut to hunt on my pieces of dirt.

"They don't want it/our methods of hunting"........but they line up on our borders 'cause they know it works. LOL!! And they will continue to be the ones on the outside looking in.

My hat is off to those that had/have foresite........truly practise management.......and smoke those that test them with a good dose of "legal ramification" that earn it. The next wave of tension in this state is going to come from the "TAKERS" that have run to the borders of the "MANAGERS". This situation is and will continue to get worse as those with no foresite continue to be the IDNR's drones and just pop, pop, pop cause the regs say you can. This will be the next step in tearing apart hunters vs hunters and neighbors vs neighbors with ugly endings. The IDNR regs in place are just accelerating this "future hunting societal acid" in hunter/hunter and neighbor/neighbor relationships.

Keep in mind though, Life is good, Hunting CAN be good........just have the courage to be a "good guy" with "good intent", and a "stick that stings" when tested.

It works........

Mark Twain said it best......"Do the right thing, and you will please a few......and astonish many"

Something else to keep in mind.....

A recent letter had been sent to Mike Tonkovich (Ohio's TOP ODNR deer authority)on a few topics on the deer herd. I think you'll find some tidbits of info in his response letter of how DNR brass thinks (no matter what state they are from)......what makes them tic......and what we can do given the chance. Even though he is from Ohio DNR.....read VERY carefully what we can glean from his helpful words of wisdom these days............


"...This is also a perfect opportunity for me to reach out to you and those hunters that really are concerned about the deer numbers and ask – of those that received a survey, how many actually took the time to return them? I know that you were not one of them, but response rates have been pitiful and if hunters really knew how much this hampers our ability to manage our deer herd, they might not be so quick to criticize. Let me explain. You aptly point out that our harvest figures are spot on with last year. That could mean 1 of 2 things. We started the season with the same number of deer as last year, which means we’re really have no impact on the herd. Alternatively, it could mean that hunters had to increase their effort by 20% (or some other unknown amount) to kill the same number of deer, which means we actually started with fewer deer this year and if we harvest the same this year, we’ll have fewer next year. My guess is that we’re dealing with the second situation. But the key is GUESS, since I can barely get 20% of the nearly 40,000 surveys returned in any given year. These surveys will allow me to track effort and will take the guess work out of interpreting harvest trends. There is no denying the fact that hunters can mask population decreases by increasing their effort. Unfortunately, I have no way of knowing this, until we get to a boiling point. I do not believe we are there, and I will make sure we don’t get there. Most of my colleagues in other states believe that because hunter’s expectations are now so high (not only in Ohio but most everywhere throughout the whitetail’s range) due to record harvests, that they will not push very hard; Couple this with the fact that deer recover very quickly, we would rather err on the side of shooting a few too many, rather than too few. So if you get a chance, post a note and remind hunters, that they are in a position to make a REAL difference simply by returning their survey. While I respect each and everyone’s opinion, we make decisions using data and I have to use the best that I have. If we continue to harvest the same number of deer, I am left to assume that we have the same number of deer." Mike Tonkovich

Where i hunt we have harvested more and seen more deer this year. We have hunted this property for 6 yrs. My 15 year old son has got 4 and i have got 3 and my dad has gotten 3 off this propertythis year. A very good year for us plenty of meat in the deep frez.

But this is what puzzles me the most...........the ones that say they don't want to do what we do, or regulations that will help keep in check those that have no "compass".......are the ones that would give their left nut to hunt on my pieces of dirt.

"They don't want it/our methods of hunting"........but they line up on our borders 'cause they know it works. LOL!! And they will continue to be the ones on the outside looking in.


Well said Scarlett

I too have seen it for years. I have preached till I'm blue in the face. They won't listen. I am literally surounded by hunters every day of the week. There are so many hunting the small woodlots on the properties West, South, and North of me, that they take turns every day of the week to hunt them! One land owner even charges $20.00 per day to drive and pick them up, drop them off to hunt, and pick them back up!!!! They then drive deer every weekend of the firearms and ML season. They have ran out of room to hunt many years ago. They have run out of deer to shoot, because they are either dead, or the deer got the He!! out.

They know where the deer have went, and I get hounded and questioned by them all the time. They even tried to backdoor their way into the property next door to us that we cash rent to farm. I'll be spending more time protecting what little I do have than actually hunting! And people wonder why I'm so against the liberal seasons/weapons, and doe permit that we now have.

Yup Yaz...well said......

Just had our first incident of the year tonight. I was doe hunting with my bow and heard 11 shots ring out on the border of one of my properties as I was getting out of my stand tonight. Long story short......an Amish guy that moved into the area a few months ago asked a neighbor two days ago if he could hunt the field south of our property......the neighbor told him he didn't own the field but he assumed if there were no pick up trucks parked at the field.........he assumed it might be OK.

That was all this amish guy needed to hear. He even told the neighbor thanks and it would just be him hunting.

Well.......guess what. He goes and gets his Amish buddy to come with him........both emptied their guns at the herd that came out........one button buck and one doe on the ground and who knows how many wounded as they shot at every running deer they could till they were both out of bullets.

As we confronted them tonight, they admitted they did not know who owned the field, said they only shot 2 times, and the first Amish that had talked to the neighbor admited he lied about bringing in friends.

Call was placed to the landowner tonight that lives in Tennessee.........charges are going to be pressed on both. We then found out that the "buddy" (second amish dude)of the first Amish guy had been arrested recently for attacking a police officer.

I'm delighted to tell you........I actually had more fun pinching these Amish Thugs than hunting tonight.

This late doe season/Any weapons has turned into a "Free For All".......I swear people will shoot till there are none left. Will be checking the woods tomorrow to see if any of the fleeing deer they shot at were hit and recoverable.

Pure Amish Thugs..........and they paid for it tonight.

Thought this was fitting for this thread.

And one more thing........if you haven't commented on the extension of our season to Chad Stewart, Your sitting Senator, and our new Governor Mike Pence..........get off your AZZZ and do it now!! Severe Damage is being done to our deer herd, and to sit silently and watch is half criminal itself in my book.

Write those letters.........

There are ways to make an even bigger statement to the politicians then writing to them if guys decide to play hard ball. But, its not an approach that most guys are comfortable with. With the Renfro Show coming up, the timing is right for an organized, focused approach. But again, I'm not sure guys really want to get in the trenches and fight. And, to do it right, it has to be where everyone gives up season length and/or opportunity.

Ok Cody how many deer are you looking at. 3states several counties. Could be why you poked at my quote and what are u looking to accomplish. Big bucks obviously,numbers,or general. You missed my point that I believe the deer are still there just moved(which) you mention. Housing editions and Human pressure. Predation not so much "in my opinion". Loved the chainsaw response create funnels and habitat. But the workin man can only do so much. Not trying to argue just understand what ur lookin at. I've personally killed 3 book makers and just missed by 2/8 on another. Lot of work involved. You can leave it alone or hash it out. My point was. The only way I got permission was by owners saying the same. New eyes come in and find sign and do the job. The next year they all are back to hunting. Learned to live with it as I was just taking 2 so I could go back to bass. But since breaking my back that could change. Like I said not a poke just a question that is why you posted it

Scarlett Dew, I respect what you do and how you and others on here do it. It's a bunch of bull when guys trespass and shoot more than their limit... You've put in the time and others want what you have. It's unfortunate.
I predicted many years ago when guys started leasing, that this would happen. Generations of hunters are being pushed offland that their family has hunted for generations. There simply isn't enough land to hold all the hunters in this state when large tracts are being tied up by a handful of guys. Then, only the guys with big money are hunting them. This is undisputed. How many thousands of acres do whitetail properties inc and companys like it, lease up and only let a few of their famous buddies on them. This is causing a ton of guys to be out of a place to hunt and they ain't happy.
I'm not saying it's right what they're doing... Only pointing out the cause and effect. Leasing is a big "cause" and overcrowding is the "effect". It will only get worse. To me it's devastating. But I'm one guy.

Again, NO OFFENSE meant towards anyone on here for doing their thing. Dew, I just used you because you wrote a very good description of your "thing".
Just giving my opinion why guys are doing what they are doing. I also believe laws only keep honest people honest. I just hate it when guys lose their land to a company who only uses it to entertain

HS Strut:

No offence to you either but, as a landowner I'll ask a few questions of you.

Who pays the taxes on my land to the state of Indiana?

Who pays the insurance on the property so YOU can hunt for free?

Who provides the habitat so wildlife can thrive on my property? It could be plowed and planted for a profit.

Just because a landowner has no mortgage does not mean he/she has no costs, we have to insure and pay taxes on ground we OWN!

We purchased property just for recreation(hunting, fishing, whatever...)why should "we" share the experience with others at no cost?

Without private ownership of land cooperating with states there would be no game to hunt. Indiana does not reimburse me for letting wildlife live and thrive on my property.

What you are seeing is called "Agri-tourism" landowners who are allowing recreation on "their" properties for a price.

Free rides to recreation on private property is over, you have three choices, own lease or hunt the public land you paid for.

I'm with Scarlett Dew.... there are no first time offenders tresspassing, I'm just the first one who caught them!

I have lost my job, I break into your house and steal from you........you don't agree with my actions, but you do understand......correct?

My bet is you would want to prosecute and protect property rights.

I get bad mouthed because I am not willing to let every Tom, Dick and Harry hunt my land, fish my lake or go "muddin", where does this entitlement attitude come from? Oddly, several years ago we received a letter from a woman who was/is the wife of a prominent business man here in town, her words "isn't it about time you sell your property so someone else may enjoy it, or at least, share it..." unreal and the nerve of some...

Solo....that is beyond unreal! That lady needs to be institutionalized!

JB,
Let me be totally clear that I'm not looking to fight. I have a smile on my face. When typing it's hard to know this.
Now, I'm the 1st one to say " it's YOUR land. You indeed pay taxes and maintain it. Do what you want with it." I don't "expect" something for free. No sense of entitlement here.

But I must counter: Why is it any different today than it was 20 years ago? Were landowners not experiencing the same costs back then? Why "now" does it have to be a business?

I see nothing wrong with paying a tresspass fee. I see nothing wrong with signing off of liability.
In my opinion this is about business. And it's LEGAL. But it's about business. And in my opinion, making it about money will help those like yourself who invested in it. But it will be the demise of hunting as we've known it.
I know that you have put in a lot of time helping hunters in Indiana. Thanks. I mean it.
Most of the time all you're doing is stating the obvious about the direction things are heading.
But,
Strength is in numbers. The more hunters and recruitment there is, the better for the future. I hoped my kids and grandkids would be able to enjoy the sport the way I did.

Loss of habitat. Leasing. Double whammy.

Don't really understand what you meant by losing a job and breaking into a house?? I never said I agreed with guys trespassing. I would turn them in EVERY time. What I was saying is it's my opinion that when you suddenly turn to a business to "pimp" out your land for money and kick off people who've hunted there for generations without offering them the chance to keep this priviledge... well, some guys get desperate. Hunting has been a way of life just like it has been for many on here.
To me, it's no different than a little league coach deciding he should be payed handsomely for his time... and hiring an agent. This agent decides that he's worth $30,000/ season. So all the kids show up at the little league next spring and find out instead of $100 fee to play ball, well now it's $5000 because the coach is risking his life driving to and from the field. AND he's gotta put gas in his car and insure it.

My guess is baseball in this country would disappear pretty quick. But hey, It's America. I wouldn't wanna live anywhere else

HS Strut:

Im always typing with a smile here and your right written word shows no emotion.

I think generational change in land ownership also affects hunters. Today many landowners have received land thru inheritance and lease the agriculture out to proffesional farmers. Money still needs to be made for upkeep and taxes, a natural progression is to hire a proffessional lease outfitter for recreational purchases.

I think this leads to a suggestion, people who have hunting permission today(free or not) must have more than annual contact woth the landowner. If you don't a lease agent might visit the landowner before seasons begin.

Leasing is not the end of hunting, in the south and west this has been common for years. I deal with several companies in Kentucky and visit with everyday production workers regularly. All of those know I hunt and we talk about what they are seeing, to a man they ALL have leases or own property. These regular folk just budget for their hunting leases. Hunter retainment nor recruitment is not suffering because of leasing. At least not in Kentucky, you don't see numbers dwindling in Texas either, the state that is all leased hunting. People adapt.

Jb is right. For many, it's a pay to play world. I'm fortunate enough to have friends who own land. I not only help out when they ask, I offer when they don't.

Im fairly select about who i let hunt
. Years ago i did hand shake deals till i had a dumbazz so lazy he wouldnt use a gate and just cut a fence and another one thought he would smoke cigars and hunt from one of my barns.. manure fire insued and it took a week to put it out.

The problem is a total lack of respect for the privledge to hunt.. old fashion decency is just about left for the history books.

On the flip side ive had the opportunity to meet a few farmers and sit and talk wirh them and offer to help out the best i could with one arm. I also plowed a few driveways and offered to make a run to the store.. i never asked to humt but they all knew i was a hunter.. end result.. new friends and a ton of new ground to hunt

Heres the secret to finding a place to hunt.... sell yourself first.. it might take a year or more but it will pay off...

Hunting is not an entitlement program!!!!...

It requires work!!!! I hope it stays that way!

I have to go back to a recent IDNR survey, then ask one question............

IDNR survey, twenty five percent of landowners said they had NEVER had a request for permission to hunt.

Question, who is working harder to get access, hunters or leasing agents?

Gundude has it right "It requires work", Leasing agents "work" for the same thing you and I do, pictures of dead Presidents. "Working" for hunting rights is no different, just no money exchanged.

Wow gundude those are some inconsiderate fools. I agree I always try to go out of my way. Even after my posts of finding deer and then getting shut down so there family can hunt. I try to always buy them a turkey or ham for holidays. Offer help with anything they might need. It helps I even got a call one year to hunt from a farmer just passing word on. I need to find my local owners who haven't been contacted. Thought I've knocked on most doors guess not. Just appreciate landowner even if they decide to not let you hunt. Lost my best 4 acres this year due to the couple kinda losing health mentally. Completely forgot I hunted after ten years but I still offer to mow and go to store if they need. Take care of them and they will usually take care of you!

Yup... its called helping out your fellow man without expecpting anything in return... if you do get something in the end its just icing on the cake.

Either way..... you win!! Think about it

Gundude,
you make such a good point about people taking advantage of landowners. I TOTALLY understand someone not wanting to allow hunters AT ALL after such an event.

Here's my rub, Now I'm not speaking of You Gundude, but MANY landowners have complained of this type of thing happening. So what do they do? LEASE OUT THE LAND To a broker. So what they're saying is: I'll put up with that same guy hunting here if he PAYS ME. When a landowner leases he loses that person to person deal. That handshake. It's now a business. So My son and I can't get permission, but it's fine and dandy for my son and I to hunt all we want if we PAY. These landowners know nothing and DON'T CARE who's hunting if they are getting PAYED.

HS Strut - I understand what you are trying to say, but certainly don't agree. I lease land to hunt on. Been on the same lease for over 10 years. We made a point to get to know the landowner right away. They know that we take care of the place like it was our own. They DO CARE who's hunting and what takes place, even though they are getting paid. If we don't respect the land, they will non-renew the lease and find someone who will respect it. Getting paid has nothing to do with what they will accept as far as how the hunters treat their land.

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just seeing it different.

I think you are wrong on that assumption. I have three leases. All of them have specific contracts stating what we can and can't do. If we disrespect land or owner in anyway we are booted, people tend to have a vested interest when there $$ is involved. There is no short list of guys that want leases. If you aren't meeting landowners standards someone else will be more than willing to stepup. Plus we carry liability insurance and detail everything up front. Which would you feel more comfortable doing if you were a landowner?

This is getting to be a quite interesting conversation.

We need to here more from those who are leasing.

This is interesting. You guys have made a couple good points.

I've been pulling my info from guys who never meet the landowner. They pay a company and the company turns them loose. Sorry if I threw everyone into the same group.

Just think if the guys who were paying the lease company would contact the landowner who is doing the leasing to the big company. NO Middle Man,,,Hmm,,,Extra money to be made for the landowner and money to be saved for the leasers.
I know most lease companies have contracts but I'm sure they aren't forever. If the leasers would just communicate with the landowners everyone could win.

I too agree most of the Free Ride hunting is over. You gotta pay one way or the other, might as well get used to it.

The contracts are not forever but an individual that has leased from base camp can never go back to the landowner for hunting rights after the lease is up

Didn't realize that. NEVER is a long time. Thanks Dale

or what, exactly?