@RyanSabalow: Should Indiana deer hunters be allowed to use high-powered rifles.

http://t.co/rkyzSCxaim

seems to present both sides.....

Yep....Ryan Sabalow is a GREAT "journalist" there are never factual inaccuracies or instances of playing loose with the truth with his articles

Well I can tell ya now.... a .308 is NOT a "banned cartridge"!!

In a rifle... for use now ???

The article only states that it is a banned cartridge.... which it is not! It is a legal cartridge in a pistol.
It may be a "banned rifle".

yeah...the wording is off in the pic it seems....word "Rifle" need inserted

every one of these "banned cartridges" is legal in a pistol for deer hunting in Indiana right now. But not a rifle?? Come on Indiana DNR!!

Hmmm, how many semi auto pistols are there shooting those rounds ...... Still not needed in Indiana for deer management ..... we can go round and round over this forever..... While not a done deal...its a done deal....

I have a 30-06 that I use regularly to take caribou on the Alaska tundra. It is a great gun, fun to shoot, and fun to hunt with. I have taken caribou out to 400 yards with it. It is capable of a lot more in the right hands.

As much as I like to use this gun in Alaska, I'm not a fan of expanding the capability to Indiana. It would be really easy to make a mistake with that gun that would haunt me my entire life.

I think the popularity of that .358 rounds with speeds up close to 3000fps have started this.

Honestly I do not think that we should just make it real easy and go back to shotgun and muzzleloaders.

Most modern muzzleloaders are capable of 300 yard shots and shot guns with rifled barrels and scopes shooting the modern "bullet" type slugs are capable easily out to and beyond 200 yards.

How much further do we need ?

yes some areas you could shoot rifles, but what about in most areas ?

I think its a can of worms/problems

Not to start trouble, but the notion that muzzle loaders are 300 yard guns and shotguns are 200 yard guns is BS. There isn't one in a hundred hunters that could make those kind of shots.

I hear "my muzzle loader shoots like a high powered rifle" all the time from friends and acquaintences. News flash ... It's is nowhere close.

You don't see guys going on hunting trips out west where they can use a 30-06 electing to take their slug gun or muzzle loader very often for good reason.

Totally agree, my CVA wolf off the shelf of Cabelas bargain cave is a 100-150 yard gun, period

Now if you have the money, you can get a legitimate 300+yd muzzleloader. I bet they have not sold many to Indiana hunters though...

http://www.badbullmuzzleloaders.com/models.htm

76chevy - 150 Yds is about all I can get out of my TC also, and I've played around with a bunch of different kinds of bullets and loads.

I've got a slug gun that is about as good as you can get; Savage bolt action 12ga, fully rifled, sporting a Leupold 3x9 scope and shooting Federal saboted Barnes copper loads. Zeroed at 100 yards, it drops 6" at 150 yards and 18" at 200 yards. Have worked with it extensively.

My Savage 220F is a 200 yard gun. I have shot deer out to 225 yards with it no problem and dropped them. I have it zeroed in at 200 yards. I bought it for long range shooting. Of course I have a 6-24-50 on it I believe it is.

What is the drop from 100 to 200 yards?

Parrot - Curious, what is the bullet drop from 100 yard zero to 200 yards?

I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it. It is 3 inches high at 150 and dead on at 200.

I shoot Remington 3 inch Accutip. I am sure it is on their site.

Looked it up. Looks like 14.5" drop from a 100 yard zero to 200 yards, so not a great deal different than my loads. I shoot 2-3/4" loads and the 12ga is a heavier slug, likely that is the 3.5" difference.

Rainbow trajectory any way you slice it, and pretty well out of gas at distances much beyond that 200 yard mark.

In 2012 I killed a doe at 193 yards with my Remington 870 20 gauge shooting a Copper solid 2 3/4 slug. Granted that gun shot like a rifle

Even have video of the shot

My 20 gauge, which was stolen, was 2" high at 100 yards and 13" low at 200.

It did not start "keyholing" until it was past 275 yards

Made a 3" 3 shot group at 200 yards.

Sounds good thanks for looking.

Uncle Bucky, I have shot it to 250 with no problems. Nest year wont matter with our HPRs

yeah... they shoot further then people realize.

The comment section here is interesting....

One commented suggested they be legal in northern IN only as it has much more open flat terrain and open farm land

^^^^ and sadly your not joking about that...

There's a reason that the 30-06 has been so popular for over 100 years. It is tremendously accurate at long ranges. The modified rounds 300 Win Mags, WSM, etc don't shoot that much different. All these guns are capable of taking deer at 1000 yards. That is a substantial difference from the current legal guns that people can get out to a couple hundred yards with.
I do like the smaller rifle cartridges for deer. Many have similar ballistics to modern shotguns and muzzleloaders with much less recoil. These are great for kids, women, and anyone else that doesn't enjoy the beating a 12 gauge slug gun can put on you.

I'll take my .270 win. for deer anyday over an '06....I wont use it here, but for Texas and the western States it's a heck of a deer rifle....there are quite a few good calibers out there....just not for this state...I hope ;0)

I shot rifle competition for years and very few people can shoot well enough from field positions to have any business shooting much over 200 yrds.Those who say their slug guns shoot like a rifle may be right,but do they shoo like an accurate rifle?

I shot rifle competition for years and very few people can shoot well enough from field positions to have any business shooting much over 200 yrds.Those who say their slug guns shoot like a rifle may be right,but do they shoot like an accurate rifle?

i think youre being too generous

I would have said 100 yds

I think you guys make the point. Generally speaking, we probably know that a LOT of guys that go deer hunting aren't the most responsible when out there, don't take anywhere near enough time or practicing with their weapon of choice and take unreasonable shots already be it situational or length of shot taken. It could be argued that it's bad enough with the short range weapons in use now and expanding to the high power, longer range weapons is likely to make it even worse.

I agree. In the last couple decades deer-hunting weapons of choice, whether vertical bows, crossbows, shotguns, handguns, rifles, or muzzle loaders (and their associated projectiles) have seen significant increases in the distances at which those projectiles can be launched with acceptable accuracy to ethically make clean kills on deer-sized game. Regardless of which weapon and projectile the hunter chooses he/she is, and always has been, responsible for the results in the field. You need to know the limits of your weapon and its projectile. You need to know your limits in placing that projectile in the right spot. And you need to practice to gain the knowledge and skill to make shots at whatever distance YOU have determined you can make a clean kill a very high percentage of the time (in the field, not just on a target range). Plus, the shot must be taken ethically and safely. This holds true for all weapon types.

Here is a link copied from another hunting website. It contains video of two young men shooting mule deer in Idaho...at 1,082 yards and 960 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD9A-dvfFD0&list=UUW05Qtde64oWHNG0CvMrdHg

At what point does shooting long distance become target practice instead of hunting? If the quarry has zero chance of using their senses to detect danger...is it really hunting?

its the men holding the guns...not the guns that are the problem there.


does a deer two hundred yards away detect the danger about to be unleashed by a modern shotgun or muzzleloader?

Exactly! Doesn't take much of a hunter to kill at 200 yards with the weapons we already have available. Just takes a good marksman. So why the effort to push that distance out to 1,000 yards for hunting? Give lesser marksmen better odds at 200 yards?

Here is a link copied from another website showing a hunter shooting a deer with a bow at 104 yards.

http://youtu.be/8ri6U74eIvE

Here is a link of a bow hunter shooting a turkey at 200 yards with a bow.

http://youtu.be/1u9ahXrfJ64

Imagine atterbury FWA where you can't see 40 yards in the scrub brush, and those hunters armed with high power rifles....

You mentioned Atterbury, I had mentioned Kingsbury once before...heck, a person could sit at the south end of Blood Alley and shoot at a deer all the way north to the tracks....or down one of their super long fence rows.... there are horror stories that come off that place every year, just wait if this crap passes....you'll have bunny hunters, pheasant hunters, waterfowl hunters and rifle totin' deer hunters all out at the same time.....JP will be just as bad, just that there isnt any Pheasant on the place ;0)

no, they don't, but a 3" group at 200 yards with a 20 gauge slug is good enough to kill deer.

agree.. rifles are not needed in Indiana, if it were up to me we'd go back to the old method, muzzleloader and shotguns only. I doubt that will happen

Not exactly...but made me look.

Last night I went out at about 3:45. I hunt a small area (< 10 acres) and was in a stand on a ridge over funnel and a small cut corn field on the other side with about 1/2 acre of standing corn. At 5:30 the deer start pouring into the field. 6 does, 3 fawns, and then a forkie came from behind at 5:40. I looked across the field and finally after a long season, a shooter shows. He's quartering away slightly at 115 yards and it's 5:45. Technically legal light, but there is a road 400yds behind and a house 100 yds to the right. I'm an average shooter, and definitely not comfortable with my muzzy on that shot. As the final sunlight faded and I slipped out of the stand, I couldn't help but wonder how many average shooters would have taken that shot with an hpr.

If you were in a treestand at a height of 20 ft the bullet would hit the ground about 20 yards behind the deer, even with an hpr.

One thing with HPR you will see a lot more tripod stands in the MIDDLE of big fields you will not have to hunt the side of a DG old the entire field will be in range still hunt the edges but ALL of them at one time you will be able to take wind direction out of the quest for Big Bucks or as far as that goes any deer

@js2397- I didn't include every detail as to keep the post as short as possible. Your point is a good one, but in my case the stand is 17ft., field is a total of 12 acres, and has crest in the middle that drops about 12-14 ft to where my stand is. So in my case, a virtually level shot. My point is should an average hunter be taking a quartering away in iffy light with roads and houses around. Even with my .243 I know it's a shot I would have been tempted with. I'm not necessarily against hprs, but I do think the counties have to be looked at. In an area like yours that is extremely hilly, I would have no problem with them.

Got you, I don't disagree that there are shots and areas where hpr's may not be the best choice.

I agree and I find this so diminishing for deer hunting. The word hunting is pretty much nondescript anymore because so much of deer season really isn't hunting at all and it's only going to get worse.

Is it hunting if done from a tripod stand in the middle of a field? At the edge of a field? In the middle of a woods?
Is it hunting if done from a tree stand, ladder stand, or any other kind of elevated stand, blind, or “tree house?”
Is it hunting if done from a ground blind?
Is it hunting if done with a recurve bow, compound bow, or crossbow if the latest technology** is used?
(**technology such as arrow/bolt heads, sights, scopes, range finders, bipods, trigger releases, trail cams, camo clothing, scents, scent blockers, etc.)
Is it hunting if done with a muzzleloader equipped with a scope? Using saboted bullets? Using substitute or even smokeless powders?
Is it hunting if done with a shotgun equipped with a scope? Using a rifled barrel and saboted bullets?
Is it hunting if done with a handgun equipped with a scope? Using a bipod and/or other devices to steady the aim?

Is it ONLY hunting if we walk, stalk, and crawl on the ground in pursuit of game?
Or, is it ALSO hunting it we just stand, sit, or lie in wait (at a point of our choosing) for the game to come within our personal maximum effective, safe, and ethical range, regardless of whether that is from an elevated position, ground blind, or on the ground itself?

Or, do our answers to the above depend heavily upon which hunters or hunting tools (weapons, accessories, and projectiles) we personally like or dislike?

---Posted as food for thought.

Love the post Cedar. Or, is it hunting if we sit at home in the future and pull the trigger on a remote control rifle stationed in the woods or field with a 24 hour live camera in it. Does the progression ever end.

Thanks. Regarding your question of remote-controlled killing of game, I believe that can (and should) be banned in and from Indiana, either by legislation or regulation. Assuming the practice is not already banned I would suggest that as a topic for discussion with Mark Reiter very soon.

NOW your talking Dave!!!! That would make my wife happy!!! No more muddy hunting clothes in HER laundry equipment. No need to buy any more expensive hunting boots, or nice wool garments. No more getting up two hours before the crack of dawn, waking her up in the process. No more missing family functions and Holidays "just to shoot a deer". She would be ecstatic!!!

Instead: I could sit in my warm, dry, recliner in my underwear at the TV, with my coffee, all day, so as not to miss anything going on in the woods. When she wants to run the dreaded vacuum when I'm "hunting", I'd have to tell her, NOT NOW!, I'm hunting. When she called me to lunch, NOT NOW! I'm hunting. She tells me company is coming over for dinner, NOT NOW!!! I'm hunting!!! When her show American Idol comes on…..NOT NOW!!!!!!!!!!! HONEY!!! Could you please bring me a beer….I'm Hunting, and can't get up!!!

On second thought…………..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...hoot-live-animals-over-the-internet.html

That's old news, been around a while unless they've stopped it. This article was from 2005. Just amazes me.

I don't think our hypocrisy allows the progression to end.....

Compounds, crossbows, 200 yard slug guns, hprs, scent control clothing, game cameras that run 24/7/365 and contact hunters in real time, high fence game farms that sell urine, semen, venison, live deer and "hunts". How about drones? The list goes on and on and on.........

As far as hunters go, who gets to decide where to draw the line? Who gets to decide what is fair chase? You may think that hprs cross the line while I think "real time" cameras do. You may think that a game farm is out of line, yet how many of us use deer urine in the woods every year?

In the end, we are all a bit hypocritical when it comes to "progress" as we support what we agree with and rail against what we don't.

My only disagreement with your post JJAS is the words, "a bit". I would instead suggest the word "pathetically" (me included) be more appropriate. I think to degree this is why after spending a lot of hours in the stand this year and passing countless deer, bucks and does, I just didn't see the point of putting one down. It just seems to me that so much of it has taken an ugly turn, with almost no respect for the deer itself.

I will leave the arguing to you all, I am going coyote hunting...with my .243 =)

I don't think you got my point cedar IHunt a lot around a 7 acre WSG field I stand in the drive and check the wind and hunt the woods edge that is appropriate with HPR I could walk the fire break in the middle of the field climb in a tripod and hunt the entire field regardless of wind And then Shoot deer not hunt them

As soon as all the deer hunters clear out I'll be doing the same thing.

HPR are already legal in Indiana for all but deer. Also you can use HPR cartridges in pistols in Indiana so it is a bit silly not to allow HPR. As to the muzzle loader effective distances...The guns manufactured today are more powerful than those used to kill bison at over 1000 yards. As far as that goes so do 20 gauge sabots. To me the real benefit will be to be able to use a more efficient tool with far less recoil. This can be as much as 2/3 less recoil.

I don't think that any possible benefit outweighs the risks. Yes, high powered rifles are already allowed for other things, like coyotes, and you can target shoot with them, but 1) with target shooting, if you go out on your back 40 and a round goes into someone else’s house, you’re criminally liable for not shooting in an area properly backstopped, and that happens a few times a year, so, how many deer hunters are going to make sure any shot they take is properly backstopped? They may be hunting in a flat area where that’s not even possible. 2) With target shooting or hunting coyotes, when do you have hundreds or thousands of other guys in the woods that could not only potentially be hit by your shot, but could potentially shoot you? Deer season brings out far more people into the woods at the same time than any of those other activities. Where I hunt, opening morning already sounds like a warzone, but I'm not worried. If those are high powered rifles, you can bet I'm going to be worried and that will take away from the peaceful relaxtion and enjoyment I feel being out there. Like I said, I don’t think there are any herd management benefits that outweigh the potential risks.

It is a silly comparison to equate coyote hunters to deer hunting, not even close. There are far more deer hunters in the field and shots being taken by deer hunters then coyote hunters.

Most coyote hunters use smaller fragmenting style bullets so as not to damage the pelt.

Coyote season is 5 months long. If it were as short as deer firearms season there would probably be a lot more guns in the woods.

If the hpr is allowed you will only be able to use fragmenting style bullets for deer.

there is no way there are as many 'yote hunters as there is deer hunters......it dosnt play into this at all, those that continue to bring this up are fooling themselves....no comparison at all.... when I hunt 'yote's I never see another doing so, as for the deer hunters that is a whole different story, there are trucks/vehicles parked all over(esp. on public land)...., you dont see that with 'yote hunters... for the largest portion of gun deer hunters, once the season is done, they wont venture back into the woods till the following season....only a few die hard's like myself and a few others on here chase 'yotes....

Maybe we should just make the deer gun season 5 months long. Problem with parking solved.

Naw, lets just do away with deer season. Problem solved.

Actually was standing looking at smokers at Calela's today in Louisville and struck up a conversation with another gentleman looking at them. I asked him if he smoked any of his deer meat and he laughed and said, and I quote, "I use a high powered rifle and sit on my porch and shoot deer, there's no reason to hunt deer". He asked what county I lived in and I told him I lived in Indianapolis. Anyhow, to make a long story short, he "explained" to me that the baiting and rifles in Kentucky has taken "hunting" out of game. He was in his 60's and lived near Bardstown.

There's a deer season in Indiana?

Good point. Let's just close'm all.

Lol. Let's all go fishing. How do you guys feel about HPB? (High Powered Boats)

With HPR that's exactly what I've been saying The Hunt would be taken out of the picture You think most Not all are wanting just that For Indiana What an edge to be able to kill just about every deer you see IKÑOW I would on my farm

In past years that I did hunt with my ML/slug Gun, I passed on shots I easily could have made with my .270 .... I would say there are thousands of others that have done the same, now put a CF in their hands and what would have been a passed shot is now a dead deer....the kill numbers WILL go up, both antlered and antlerless....I know what I'm capable of with a CF .... I can consistently make 200-375 yd shots on 'chucks, 'yotes and crows with my 22-250, a deer is a give me out to 275+ yds with my .270 .... Ive done it in the western states.... ****, as a USMC sniper, I was making 600+ yds shots on a regular basis... we were killing goats out to 500+ yds on Kahoolawe off the big Island...deer aint squat... watch Extreme outer Limits on TV, 600-800 yd shots are common, punch in the info on your hand held computer, dial in the scope and smile....

I think you are over estimating the average hunter, you have the training and experience and can make those shots but they can't.

I would bet most (like 95%+) in Indiana won't be capable of this kind of accuracy needed to consistently harvest deer at 275 to 300 yds, let alone longer ranges. In most areas, most shots will still be inside of 100 yds regardless of weapon capability

76Chevy And there is your bottom line....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 76chevy:
[QB] I think you are over estimating the average hunter, you have the training and experience and can make those shots but they can't.

I would bet most (like 95%+) in Indiana won't be capable of this kind of accuracy needed to consistently harvest deer at 275 to 300 yds, let alone longer ranges. In most areas, most shots will still be inside of 100 yds regardless of weapon capability


I agree BUT they will NOW try.... that is what makes makes me uneasy.

They have studied deer hunting here with high power rifle cartridges in pistols and there has been no increase issues. They also studied other states with shotgun only laws that switched to HPR and there was no increase in hunters shot.

The worst season for hunters getting shot is turkey season with shotgun and bird shot.

I wonder if it would make it more dangerous if you could use a high powered rifle in turkey season? I don't want a public land situation where a guy shoots over me from 100 yards at a bird I'm working out into a clear cut for a 25 yard shot with my shotgun. I've had a few shot out from under me by shotgun toting idiots sneaking in to cut em off coming to the call. Do not want ARs and other hpr in my turkey woods. Not cool.

turkey season....no blaze orange.

you will never see rifles for turkeys in Indiana. As it should be

You have to wear orange during the winter turkey season.

(From another site)

The Advisory Council is going to review the comments at its upcoming meeting on January 14th. For that reason all of the comments as of yesterday or maybe a couple of days ago were posted along with the advisory council’s agenda. They may be accessed at the following web addresses:


www.in.gov/nrc/files/nrc_docket_comments.pdf


www.in.gov/nrc/files/mailed_comments.pdf

As of this time... I have no comments on the comments ;0) ....

You may want to start prepaing yourself...."Pandora's Box" is/was opened!!!

Don't look like it gonna shut anytime soon!!

Some good "for and against" comments in the list of comments. And then, a lot of just outright, and I'll use a polite word here, goofy, comments from some who I believe probably shouldn't be allowed to shoot any gun. Just my opinion of course. Just bring baiting on and Indiana will have finally hit the bottom of the barrel. With rifles and baiting, more guys will lose access to private hunting ground then imaginable. Good hunting grounds will lease at $35 per acre and consume large tracts of acreage that 3 to 5 day hunts will cost close to $4,000. The DNR's role in managing deer is coming to an end and the NRC is just to __________ to be able to see it. Maybe that's not all bad.

Most that I read were in favor of the rule but as usual you get your comments from people who lack in proper typing and English skills so it makes their comments not worth reading and them sound ignorant....

You also get your comments from people who know nothing about ballistics and scream OMG bullets will go for miles and miles which is not true...

Then my favorite that I read was from a guy in Ft. Wayne who was against it because he said our herd was being decimated but yet stated that he and his family kill 3-4 deers every year... Gee, moron did it ever occur to you that when you kill 3-4 deer every year that eventually you are not going to see anymore deer... :rolleyes:

You just can't fix stupid folks.... :rolleyes:

The comments about more revenue for the DNR, likely not so. Less wounding rates, possibly but possibly not as well. More people coming into the sport, very questionable. Comments of basically "I want it" were good, honest comments without the need for justification. And I did like the comment by the one gentleman who suggested that there could be more accidents but in essence, so be it. And I thought the comments about less recoil for young kids and woman were pretty good. But what you find, as with many other situations where new weapons have been approved, not much said about the aspect of "hunting". Instead, it's most about shooting and in essence, to a degree, using the deer as a target as opposed to hunting the deer and outsmarting the deer to harvest it. What I really wish I could understand is how many days each of the responders hunt each year.

Probably not many so hit them from a distance and get it over with... I think this is why the majority probably support it... Less in the woods, and more on the couch or other obligations...

I only hunted I think 10 days total this year 2 being with a bow (don't even know why I bothered with the bow) and 8 with a gun... Would have hunted more but the weather was terrible with unfavorable wind conditions for me to use my ladder stand...

I think it would be great if the state would ask people who comment how many days did they spent in the field when asking for comments so you could get an idea on why someone supports or opposes a rule change...

Although I never had the pleasure of meeting him in person, it's threads like this that make me miss Gundude.
About now he'd chime in with something like:

Ice is 4" and gills are hitting bee moths in 6' of water

Big Ten basketball is in full swing


He certainly got my attention with little lines like that...as well as reminding us that life is too short and too precious to spend it at a keyboard trying to be right.

HS, I was honestly thinking the same thing when the Hoosiers didn't show up in East Lansing Monday night. He left his mark on this forum that's for sure!

Someone on another site counted through all of the e-mailed comments ....Here are the results

TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE the following are correct:

YES: 774

Yes with stipulations (such as magazine restrictions, county, etc.): 155

NO: 773

Welp......that's all the NRC needs right now is just that "1" vote that makes it a majority. I wonder if that "1" vote to get it done was from Bryan Pointer or Patrick Early again.

It would have to be overwhelming opposition. Not a 1 vote/count difference like this is so far .

"Overwhelming" is like what happened to proposal #1....

lol

You're right.... I keep forgetting that when 2% of deer hunters responded against Prop #1 and 98% had no complaint or anything to say against Prop #1, and our Top Deer Biologist Chad Stewart was all for Prop # 1 as his first choice.......It was still considered "overwhelming" against Prop #1 by a few members of the NRC. Thanks for the reminder again Brew in what "overwhelming" means when it comes to our NRC and how they make decisions..... And reasons why we lose good people like Chad Stewart in our IDNR as they leave and go elsewhere.

LOL...keep grasping at straws :rolleyes:

There will always be those who are unhappy that 1.0 didn't pass and that crossbows and (likely) hprs are now a part of the deer hunting landscape.

But in the future I see supporters of 1.0 getting one thing they wanted........

I see the real possibility of shortened and/or moved gun seasons after herd reduction goals are met and archery hunters (in a large part due to crossbow inclusion) secure a larger percentage of the overall harvest and thus become a proven, viable management tool.

How long will all of this take? Who knows. But I would imagine it will take several more seasons.

I dont know about the move....my time spent talking to Chad indicated this state will not move the gun dates, they would just use the bonus tags as a means of regulating the yearly kills and over kill in certain areas..... I'm waiting to see what they do with the Urban vs deer "reduction" zones...I havnt seen any indication on how this will be done...

funny, they use the OBR ruling to grow bigger bucks, yet will not take the final step to accomplish this by moving the gun season out of the rut ? hmm....

Makes no difference to me, just don't complain about not having bigger bucks.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Most that I read were in favor of the rule but as usual you get your comments from people who lack in proper typing and English skills so it makes their comments not worth reading and them sound ignorant....

You also get your comments from people who know nothing about ballistics and scream OMG bullets will go for miles and miles which is not true...

Then my favorite that I read was from a guy in Ft. Wayne who was against it because he said our herd was being decimated but yet stated that he and his family kill 3-4 deers every year... Gee, moron did it ever occur to you that when you kill 3-4 deer every year that eventually you are not going to see anymore deer... :rolleyes:

You just can't fix stupid folks.... :rolleyes: [/QB][/QUOTE]


all depends on whether or not those deer were taken off one property or spread out. I take an average of 5-8 deer, but off of 5 properties in 5 different counties.

I think the deer numbers have been down, but if you look at the bow hunters study, its a natural up and down cycle.. you cannot make a fair opinion over a 2 year period.

But I have never heard you complain about never seeing deer and the multiple videos you so kindly share with us every year proves that you are seeing deer...

The point I am making is don't shoot multiple deer a year then complain on forums (such as this) or to the DNR that you are seeing fewer deer or no deer or go out telling others how they should hunt then you go out and blast everything brown and justify it... That is just being a hypocrite...

To me that person was being a hypocrite because he is against HPR's and his reasoning is that deer numbers are down but yet he and his family are killing 3 to 4 deer a year.... Heck I guess you could argue what harvesting multiple deer a year has anything to do with HPR's...

The tbr had nothing to do with the DNR wanting big bucks it was a social issue brought on by hunters not biologist

I agree Bryan.. did not mean for that to be taken bad.. sorry...