The original photo was used as an ANTI Hunting photo, it was confirmed as a road kill on www. AR15.com.

Now it has been used to degrade a VERY difficult balancing job by our paid professionals at IDNR.

If Gary and his buddies want to post crap.... we will expose it.

The use of out of season permits result in about 2000 dead deer per year, not a drop in the bucket in over all deer management numbers.

Seems to me if a person or group is always needing to "clear things up" or explain "what they mean" maybe they should just try simple honesty in the first place.

Credibility is not something a man can take from another man....it must be given up. Once given its nearly impossible to get back.

Again Peta like play on emotions tactic that stuff needs to be dropped imo

You can say that again

Well, it just can never end can it. Why is it that this site seems to be all about the new organization? Hey, let the new organization be what it wants to be or say what it wants to say. So what! Leave their stuff to their site. Leave their debate to their site.

Seriously, what is wrong with people. This sounds like some grade school recess stuff. If folks don't like what another organization is saying, simply ignore them. I think HS was pretty much on spot with his post earlier. Can no one see how pathetic all of this sounds and is? Does no one understand how the DNR and others who monitor all these sites laugh at all of this and how they then pretty much discredit the individuals involved with these threads? And you think there is value in all of this?! I never understand how very good people end up acting like this. I guess it's just one of the benefits of social media.

Hey, if you can't post on another organization's website or facebook, you can likely send a private message. If you want to "Call another organization out", can you do it either somewhere else or privately? Geez, enough is enough. Maybe we need new moderating guidelines that suggest that any post relative to the initial topic be removed immediately or the individual be given a time out. Every darn topic recently has almost immediately become so far off topic that is beyond explanation.

Delaney there are BIG frogs everywhere. Going back after em this weekend.....

So the attack continues. Really LOL. I posted legitimate questions to this forum and not a response, except one person, although all those that been spreading hate have been posting. GUESS I FIGURED OUT HOW TO SHUT UP AT LEAST SOME ANTAGONISTIC HECKLING. So I have to believe they just don't want discussion, only their views and need to argue and promote infighting. Continue with fighting and made up crisis. The very thing they accuse us of. They only can exist with constant infighting, and disharmony. Discussion of the issues must be beyond the scope of this forum, or more accurately the few that seem to keep spouting hate, and taking over the forum as some attempted to do on our Facebook page and we do not allow per our policy. Like most examples of hate; they are out of fear they may be losing something, or are just uneducated and fall back to fear as their only reserve. Glass half empty instead of half full. Instead of looking at another group as an asset, they feel threatened in losing their "Power" or what they have; whatever that really is anyway.

I explained the picture on our Facebook page. Though of the 3840 people that viewed the post, less than ten seem to have a problem with it. I would venture to say, just my opinion, that the biggest part of those same <10 are the ones that have a problem with us, either personally or as a group. You are correct, we shouldn't have to clarify every single little detail, to these handful of people that get wrapped up in details. However, in the attempt to be transparent as possible, we do clarify for those handful of people, same ones over and over and over, does get frustrating, and tiring. So if we clarify details for these few, they state we shouldn't have too. If we don't, they state we are not including them in discussion, or hiding something, or lying. You can follow this very thread and see where some are asking for more details, and other saying we shouldn't have to justify, sometimes one in the same person, lol. See the impossibility in pleasing this one heckler, let alone the other 5-9. It is impossible to win this antagonistic back and forth game. Over time it is proven, the issues don't matter, the fighting does. I believe, by not responding to the issues, a rational individual can see what these divisive individuals are really about. THIS IS WHAT HAS TAKEN AWAY THE HUNTER'S VOICE IN ALL ISSUES THAT MATTER, PERIOD. THIS IS WHAT HAS BEEN THE DOWNFALL AND RUIN OF WHAT ONCE WERE GREAT GROUPS OF PEOPLE, BECAUSE THEIR LEADERSHIP CANNOT GIVE UP THEIR PERSONAL AGENDAS FOR WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE WHOLE AND THE RESOURCES.

It does seem that these same ones could care about nothing more than to promote infighting, all at the expense of the resource they state to care so much about. That is why we don't allow this disharmony on our FACEBOOK page, counter productive to any reasonable progress, and quit frankly has become tiring to attempt to communicate and bring hunters together on this site, because these handful cannot get over themselves long enough to see the forest for the trees, or the bigger picture. That is sad, especially when it comes from their so called leader.

Even most elementary students, know when they read a book, or watch the news, that the pictures are used as an illustration. This is not misleading in the least. Books, magazines, and all forms of media, would get pretty boring sometimes with out illustration. Pictures that are on Facebook, per their policy, can be shared, and the poster gives up ownership in that regards. This picture went viral, and was common property on Facebook. Using it to illustrate a point was not misleading. The text of the post, I challenge anyone to dispute those facts. Joe, as your leader, seems to simply state that he wants to EXPOSE us, and believes the dep tag issue is just a drop in the bucket. By his own post, he is showing he prefers to promote discourse, disharmony, and promote infighting, even over the issue. It doesn't appear to me by his post the issue has any need for concern. Even though, on this forum he has stated if we become organized he would support us or any organization. "The IDHA will support ANY group that has filed as a group with the State of Indiana or the Federal Government and meets tax recording requirements...... At this time the IDWHM does not meet the standard required for membership in the FWCC." We have, and have MEMBERS exponentially more so than the IDHA already. Though Joe's statement of criteria was completely false, and I can post the exact criteria if anyone would like to see that. We have received advise from the Secretary of State and the IRS, and have acted accordingly. He then subsequently posted,"1. you will get no further resistance from the IDHA." Yet here he is going to EXPOSE our crap???? Seems to be opposite ends of the rainbow to me?

To ILLUSTRATE for those that are having a problem. Do you believe with every hunting article you read, that the pictures that accompany those articles, where taken on the exact farm or woods mentioned in the article, or the hunter in the tree stand is the exact author in his personal hunting location actually hunting. Do you believe all those big bucks with the person in the back ground tree stand at full draw are really in real world situations, or rather TAME deer in fenced areas??? Do you really believe, that when the DNR posts about nuisance deer in it's Facebook post, that the deer eating in the bird feeder is the exact nuisance deer mentioned in the article, or a stock photo in their archives taken by a photographer probably at a state park,?, to illustrate their point on the supposedly thousands of nuisance deer. To be credible should they have an exact picture of each culprit deer they are talking about. Or when they post a picture of an eagle with a post about eagles, that it is the exact eagle and only that one they are talking about. When Channel 13 does a story about deer, and they use stock video of practically tame deer at Eagle Creek park, when doing a story on high deer kill along the highways are they misleading? Shouldn't they be showing a actual deer getting smashed by a semi and exploding in a million pieces. Heck no. They fill up the screen with a deer illustration to grab attention and go along with their story, though the body of the story is accurate, and is researched beyond reproach. Is this something that is taken for granted by the bulk of rational American individuals today; would say just common sense? Yes, and we shouldn't have to explain; however, again for the few we do.

Here is our post today, just for anyone that has any question to the validity of our statements yesterday:


For those that had questions on the depredation tag numbers from the post yesterday please refer to the link below and then look under Deer Pages 30-32. Per the 2014 Wildlife Science Report there were 479 complaints, and permits were issued for up to 6566 deer to be taken. Of these, 2419 deer were REPORTED as being taken under the depredation permit system, of which 77 % were female, mostly of which during this time frame would have had fawns that were un-weaned. So if we just say each had one fawn, when in reality, the norm would have been twins, this took out at least 1862-3725 fawns, of which likely inhumanely starved to death. This writer was told directly first hand from a DNR Deer biologist that that is "the plan, to get 2-3 deer for the price of one, more bang for your buck."

Anytime any follower, or visitor to our page questions our sources or validity of statements, feel free to let us know. We will be happy to supply sources, other than in privacy cases, to substantiate our reports or "claims". In fact we encourage all followers to educate their selves first hand, with education we all become better conservationists.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-2014WildlifeScienceReport.pdf


But again, as most rational people can see, the haters, search and search, and twist and twist to attempt to discredit us. For what, we not getting one dime out of this. Actually costing us thousands out of our own pocket. We are not getting a free farm to hunt on for nothing at the expense of our members. Not one red cent. What we do get, is constant unrelenting grief and hate from these few that seem to do nothing but promote infighting. So why do we do it? Because go to my personal Facebook page. See my young grandkids, that I love with all my heart, and I fear they will not be able to enjoy the outdoors and wild places and things like I have if we don't stand up, and at least attempt to make a difference.

Historically, this constant infighting has not accomplished on single thing, ever. Never did one thing for the resource, habitat, or environment we all share and live in.
Actually has had quit the opposite affect, causing hunting groups to lose all credibility in this state. So lets just say we are total liars, we have some hidden agenda, out to get the world. What is all this antagonism going to prove or solve. Is it going to save one single resource for the future?

So I don't want to EXPOSE anyone or hurt any group, or even the appearance of any group, that is. As long as they are for the resource, however, if their only intent is to promote infighting and accusations, they should clean up their own hypocritical plate first. I would suggest Joe, you explain, how you resigned your group from the FWCC per two sources, and did not repetition as per their guidelines. Also in your hypocrisy of us, claiming we are not organized enough for you to ALLOW us just to sit at a table and talk about our concerns for the future of the resource, yet the Secretary of State of Indiana reports Administrative Dissolution of the IDHA 01/14/1998 in their current information: https://secure.in.gov/sos/online_corps/view_details_ppv.aspx So Joe clean up your own plate first before you come after us to expose us. However, nothing to expose, not one cent passed through our hands except our own. We have no hidden agenda, and you can see in this thread, the most detail we can give all from this site our agenda, and what we DO NOT promote.

I would suggest you spend this energy EXPOSING what has happened to our hunting dollars and programs due to the shell game politicians are playing with OUR money.

So this most current attack on our credibility is some misguided attempt to piece apart every single thing we do and say, and even they if nothing can be found, attempt to twist the use of an illustration that is universally accepted into something it just frankly is not, and rational individuals see that.

Gary, the State issue is being addressed and that comment should be directed at me, not Joe. The IDHA is current will all tax filing requirements and such and the State is aware of that.

The true POWER of a few words.......

I don't think you can suggest it's not an honest approach. Maybe the message or such needs to be stated simpler or such so folks can process it easier. But you also have to remember, some folks will continue to ask for explanation when there really isn't any further explanation than what might have been stated.

The instance of this thread is a great example. It started with a simple comment/question. And then, folks took it to a different level for whatever reason.

Here is why. https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/videos/1038803079464707/

delaney - there have been several instances pointed out where simple truth is not what was used. From a FB post that claimed there were 4500 depredation permits filled last year to the latest photograph that originally claimed to be the result of depredation tag use.

Its not a processing thing ... its a "when trying to accomplish change your every word will be scrutinized so it is best to just be honest as you can be" thing.

Hi Greg, you are back, hi buddy. Sent you some questions earlier, in case your overlooked then:

" I would just ask what would you like from us? What would be your suggestion of how we change to meet your needs? Would that meet the needs of the thousands that state we are overharvesting the deer in their areas? Would that promote the health of the herd and the hunting heritage per our mission statement? What are your goals with the deer herd? How would you go about accomplishing these goals? Maybe you have found a better way? Thank you."

Love to hear your answers.

Dave, understand you are or have fixed it to some respects tax wise after years of neglect. However as president his duty to oversee all officers to make sure it is done, sure that will be in your bylaws.

Understand others took over on FWCC when Joe resigned the group to prevent that from happening.

That being said the Secretary of State's current information listed states, "This business entity is not eligible to receive a Certificate of Existence or Authorization " The very thing Joe used against us in blocking membership in FWCC. We have contacted them and the IRS, and we have every bit the standing of an organization that the IDHA has.

Joe then states: He would be for us, then in different post, he would offer no resistance, then just today posts the unprofessional stuff about us again. Quoted specifics in earlier post today. Talking out of both sides of his mouth.

I don't care about specifics of IDHA, as long as they doing something for the deer and deer hunter, which I believe they do. However don't use manipulation and twisted truths/half truths to slam us every chance you get to prevent us from doing the same. Because I dang will call him out on it, when he threatens the very thing we all profess to believe in.

This in fighting has to stop, we all have to work together, or we will, maybe already have lost it all. Including the DNR, how much more they going to lose if we don't stand up and get their money released to do their job and fill vacancies.

S-wilk, again dang it twisting freaking our words to fit your dang needs. We posted the correct numbers as in the report 2419, we then stated at the time, I believe, if you take 77%, which was the percentage of does that was cited that number is 1862 does and 557 males. We stated if you add the number of fawns that will starve from the lost females, depending on how you figure 1862-3725 fawns. So average that. 2793 and add that back to the reported harvest, if you call it that, then dep tags most likely took out 5212, so depending which one posted the story may have done the math a little differently, more conservative to be fair and came up with around 4500. I remember the post. The point was then to figure that out exponentially over just a few years from just that one summer's loss and the numbers do become significant in the big picture.

See so now s-wilk you twisted that to say we reported a hard 4500 deer taken by dep tags in a given year as fact from DNR, actually based on their plan for management of deer using dep tags that is a very conservative real number. We did not say that 4500 does or does and bucks were taken with the gun, but secondary to the guns, we did in fact lose between 4500-5500 deer being conservative, maybe more.

I personally, am sick and tired of being called a liar, over and over again, when such as in Joe's case today, and your example both s-wilk, I have proven that to just not be the case. I would say we will have the same results with any example one brings. We will back it up with documentation or sources. The flippin point is, why we even talking about this other than for a few of you to get some kind of cheap thrill to prove whatever misguided point you trying to prove to save whatever it is you are imagining you are losing. Fact of the matter is, you internet bullying is hurting the herd, from all kinds of perspectives, and you are going to cause us to lose whatever voice the hunter has left, because frankly, anyone that used to listen is saying, **** I don't even know what they want, they can't agree themselves. We will just do whatever Farm Bureau wants. So I am calling many of you out, you need to grow up, quit trying to prove who is smarter, tougher, whatever, and unite for whatever we can agree upon and just do it. I am not a politician, don't ever expect to be, don't have to be politically correct. However, to fight for the herd I am willing to call out a few internet bullies.

https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/videos/1038803079464707/

Check it out, tired of fighting, maybe those that care for something bigger than oneself may get a smile, a ray of sunshine, in this freakin hurricane.

I'm right there with ya Gary on the depredation tags, I would however not state with certainty the unknown number of fawns which starved to death.

I've seen as you and many others have though, it DOES happen no one can convince me otherwise...but I've also seen fawns as early as June lose their mothers to vehicles and survive. Crazy hardy little boogers they can be at times.

Keep fighting for the causes you listed brother, it is worth it...just use caution and only ever state facts, that in the end will be the only way to strengthen your case...as will always acting professional. Good luck and God bless as always.

Here is why. https://www.facebook.com/Indianadeerherdmanagement/videos/1038803079464707/

Gary -

The conversation was relatively simple ... although I did think it was Ed I was talking to and not you. We were discussing the permits and someone using the IWDHM credentials posted that 4500 were filled in 2014. I mentioned that only 2500 or so had been filled in recent years and that 4500, if accurate, was a big increase. We could go back and look but I suspect that the post has long been deleted even though you claim that does not happen.

Anyway, its relatively simple .... if you are tired of some folks questioning your honesty just tell the truth. Thats all there is to it. Let your cause stand on its own.

On the subject of fawns. Learned of another hazard this year. Good to always be opening to learning new things. Found this out through my son's goats after he lost several this year.

On years such as these, when we have non stop rain, the parasites that usually live in the earth, tend to migrate further up plants that animals eat to get out of the water. Hence grazing/browsing animals tend to ingest more, and are more prone to anemia, infection, bowel issues. Having good minerals is one of the things we can do to distress the animals from this parasite. Make sure they are at full potential for producing red blood cells lost or immunity up to fight infection, caused by parasites.

Nice post. It might be well remembered that unless a person posts and states that their comment is specifically on behalf of an organization, that comment is an individual's own comment. The issue of acting professional and respectful includes no name calling, inappropriate insinuations and such.

I do tell the truth S-wilk, and you are indeed making this a personal matter. If Ed misspoke, I cannot vouch for him one way or another, I am sure it was an accident, and he was referring to the numbers above; however, you have no right or reason to call me a liar. So if you feel you have to bully others behind a keyboard I suggest you take it elsewhere. Bully's exist all over, but it is usually their own shortcomings as to why they believe they must bully others. Maybe you should seek some help brother.

Moderators, maybe time to consider shutting this thread down also? I had a comment today from someone that monitors the various hunting sites, you should be able to guess where from, who asked me what is wrong with these folks and whether "they" realized the damage this stuff is causing. I suggested to him that he reach and ask that question to many on here.

Gary - I am not bullying you. Sorry you feel that way .....

Gary did you ban the people that had a problem with the photo? I'm guessing so

I politely disagree with delaney moderators. Discussions must occur. Some have been mistreated by IWDHM (not necessarily Gary personally though to be fair) and yet still have concerns and some of us even still align with their mission statements and therefore things for lack of a better term need "hashed out".

And with a lot of distrust between some of the parties a public way is the best. Deleting or hiding of old posts on forums or elsewhere does neither side good and transparency is best.

I just wanted to state that, mods do what you will and honestly I'd understand either way.

Well said....... It's not just the World against Gary!!!

Gary is not even the founder of that FB page....

To get it back online with the topic........


The out of season permits are a tool IDNR came up with to quiet landowners who have damage from deer(and other critters), the deer are the one animal most farmers see eating a given crop. By having out of season permits IDNR can tell legislators that farmers DO have a means to mitigate damage on their property owned or leased. Now,science tells us that after a few weeks a fawn will survive on its own, not all fawns die because mom is gone. How about fawns that were taken by coyotes earlier than mom's demise?

You want farmers to have no out of season permits then open their property(forced by no alternative method)to anyone who wants to deer hunt? Then that should apply to all property owners, because the deer belong to everyone correct?

While the practice of shooting does during the fawning season is something I have never done nor will ever do "I" understand the theory and need.Now to a different concern of IWDHM,leasing.

As a landowner I have every right to make as much profit from my land as legally possible, it is called capitalism.There is no law against leasing, I don't have to get permission from neighbors, I do have a responsibility to have my borders properly marked and instruct my hunters where those lines are.

Hunters coming from other states ARE NOT coming to Indiana to kill does! Parke county became famous for big antlered bucks thus came the demand for hunting rights in the county. It is not IDNR's responsibility to protect Indiana's deer herd from leasing or out of state deer hunters. I would say that before "I" purchased any property for deer hunting "I" would have done due diligence in knowing what was happening around me.

Finally the EHD issue, when it first arrived in Indiana there was one strain and while bad it was not a strain on the resource. Today I believe it has morphed into 6 different strains. What Indiana does not have is a plan to alter season length or antlerless permits once they are established in early spring(antlerless permits). If you want to make a difference work to change that.

Gentlemen. I do feel this back and forth is hurting our very mission. As with our own site we do not tolerate this type of interactions; whereas the opinions or actions of such a few hurt the overall mission of the whole. I regret to say, I feel we have reached that impasse here as well. I pray that those that have been visiting and watching, that feel the way we do, will come visit us on Facebook at Indiana Whitetail Deer Herd Management, and/or join us by emailing IWDHMGroup@yahoo.com I believe as our 11,300+ followers and members do, that the herd and resources in general need advocates right now. So will be continuing to advocate for those issues. So for those that care, and can see the forest for the trees, come visit or join us. God Bless and Good Hunting Gentlemen.

Have to clarify that one again. The IWDHM Group has never once mentioned changing property rights or leasing. That is a private property issue, period. That is not in the scope of our interests. So again don't want those visiting this page to be mislead by Joe's comments. Thank you, hope to see you on Facebook. Another example of taking something out of context to hinder the advancement of working for the HERD. Gary Out fellas.

Once again, when presented with facts, "he's out".

I am not allowed to post on their site, makes it kind of one sided.....

I'll post later on the financial problems perceived by IWDHM and the real nuts and bolts. What must be said up front is.... OUR license fees are safe! They are in dedicated funds that at this time CAN NOT be raided by the legislature.

Deer Damage report.....

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-MR_2003_2013_Deer_Damage_Control_Program.pdf

I have a Question about this Statement Posted By JBWHITETAIL As a landowner I have every right to make as much profit from my land as legally possible, it is called capitalism. Am I reading this Correct ?? Then Why did the IDHA go after Deer Farmers? NOT CAN HUNTING I get that part. Is this not capitalism at it's Finest a guy wants to study or make Deer Attractants I am just Curious to where the LINE IN THE SAND IS DRAWN?

I've said it before....and I'll say it again..... When Patrick Early went into that room with the 10 stakeholders and said "the NRC was throwing out Prop #1".......And IDNR Brass (without NRC Brass present) said in a Senators Office "we did not want Prop #1 thrown out, it was our first choice"..........

boyz and girls....all Hades was released, and a divide amongst deer hunters and distrust of those that govern that resource was SCORCHED EARTH!!

.....and in just a few years they can go back and fix that mess they made. I hope Patrick and Bryan saw/see their errant past choices.....and don't dig their heels deeper.

Quincy Hunter, Your Tim More ...board member with IWDHM correct??

Just trying to understand who standing up for Can Hunting/Deer farming......

I think the question posed was not addressed to canned hunting but more so commercial farming.

Brew you are correct in who I am. You I do not know or think we have even met sir??? I did ask as Quincy Hunter and member of this Forum where the line is Drawn From the IDHA President that he has many times said in a Post here that is who he is. Not sure i said i was for or againist anything I said I got it in a kind a sort way Understood it. I just wonder where the LINE IS DRAWN? I wonder what is and is not okay.. Kind like this whole back and forth not sure WHERE the DEER HUNTERS WIN IN IT AT ALL. So Brew do you BUY DEER ATTRACTANTS? Tim Moore

Yes Delaney that is my Question where is the LINE DRAWN?

One more Question to Mr Bacon But First a Statement I have never been unruley on here never will be! To my Question before you answer Dedicated Funds.is it true if Our License Fees are Dedicated as you say and can not be Touched which I believe to be a TRUE STATEMENT. What happens to our Federal Pitman Robertson Monies that are matched by Federal Funds if we dont use said Dedicated Funds.