Take a look..........Articles like this are popping up everywhere in the Midwest. Indiana is currently in the Recipe for Collapse phase. Our future is being predicted by those that have "been there before us".

Good Read.....Here is the link.........

Indiana\'s Deer Hunting Collapse Link

It's going on all over the Midwest....Here's one from our neighbor to the WEST also!!!

http://thesouthern.com/sports/outdo...db589b8-79b7-11e3-8687-0019bb2963f4.html

Since when did Illinois become "east" of Indiana...

Did Illinois and Ohio do you land swap...

Yep......and Fit is hitting the Shan....

Indiana's liberal Gun Season will be on the chopping block. I'm not saying it should be moved out of the rut....but the # of days WILL be shortened.......The outcry will be just too loud due to the aggressive fall Indiana is going to experience due to 2.0.....cutting back doe permits and special doe seasons will not be enough.

The IDNR will have to look at the NEW revenue stream that will put and keep hunters in the field with less quantity..............and that NEW revenue stream will be spelled....QUALITY.

Hang on ...........Da' Sparks are gonna fly....

Doesn't Illinois have a short "Gun Season" and "QUALITY" now...Hmmm

Yep....which is why they will still have a relative steady revenue stream for their IDNR.

Our IDNR will not have that luxury item of quality to fall back on for continued interest and revenue sustainment within their budget needs.....they will have to create it.

Technically, I'd say the crash can certainly be handled solely by doe permits without any necessity to address season lengths. Of course, hunters would/will freak out. And, I agree there is the issue of the revenue stream. But, quality won't address the revenue stream adequately unless you leave the permits reasonably high and hope that season length can limit opportunities to pull the trigger. Now, on the other hand, to address the revenue stream via quality, an argument could be made by a "businessman" that if quality is to be a key goal of the future, then the cost of a "quality deer", or a buck tag, (assuming some would suggest that a buck is viewed by many as more important to shoot then a doe) should go up dramatically to increase the dollar value of a tag sold. So, if I were the folks that have to supposedly find a way to satisfy a broad range of constituents, I'd ask hunters the following:

1. Would you rather have shorter season lengths (all seasons) or have drastically reduced doe permits in certain counties.
2. Are you willing to have a different price structure for a buck tag vs a doe tag.

Depending on how the hunters would respond to the above, I'd then pursue an approach that addresses hunters concerns, ag concerns, insurance company concerns, non hunter concerns and legislators concerns and yes lastly (but dealt with first and foremost) revenue concerns. I would also though revisit the mission of the DNR as it related to deer management to assure that I have a mission statement that is clearly defined and understood by all constituents, realizing that there is no way to satisfy everybody.

And Brew, Illinois has significant issues between resident hunters and non resident hunters and outfitters. I'd suggest the Illinois DNR might have a bigger can of worms they are dealing with then Indiana.

I don't know either... My Maintenance supervisor was born in Illinois and he goes back for both gun seasons and he said that last few years has sucked over there... He don't see anything like he use to...

If I drove the few hours over there and hunted hard everyday and didn't see anything, I would call it anything BUT quality hunting.... But, that is me... I don't have to see huge deer to consider it quality hunting... Just seeing deer mull around and feed and just act normal would be quality hunting in my books.... Quality means different things to different people....

Since very few, <5%, of hunters kill 3 or more deer, I'd suppose most would not object to lowering the antlerless permits.

I'm not sure why that fact always gets lost in this discussion. Most people don't care if you have unlimited doe tags. They are only going to kill 2 or 3 deer anyway.

John, that is a key comment to all of this because the DNR has always referenced the average harvest per hunter number as an indicator that raises tags is not so awful. It can be in localized situations of course. But, even with shorter seasons, if folks want to harvest 2 or 3 deer, they are going to have ample time to do so. I think that for years when the DNR would suggest what the Indiana herd numbers were, they were way low and that for quite a few years the herd has been going down in total numbers and as we know, sooner or later it hits a cliff, which may be where we are in a lot of areas.

So let me get this straight...providing links to "doomsday" articles like this one written by a professional trophy hunter from Iowa, is somehow supposed to convince enough hunters in Indiana that the sky is falling and their only hope is to try and force the Indiana DNR to abandon their herd reduction plan...and move/shorten the gun season...(boy does that whole move/shorten thing sound familiar).

Realistically, Indiana is only in year two of what is normally a 5 year run (when new regs are implemented), and Chad Stewart has already said he expects (if the plan is working) that harvest numbers will drop.

So what is likely to happen is for the IDNR to look @ this season's data and IF NECESSARY make changes to the bonus antlerless tag availability and thus lower the number of counties that are able to participate in the late antler less season.

Aw yes, Chicken Little is still the "Town Crier", posting links to other states. Have to appreciate the pictures of the Bucks, wherein the taker poses as far behind the bone as possible in order to enhance the overall size of the taken. The picture of the cute 'yungin, is certainly a motivator for sure. Two years into a five year project is certainly enough evidence to warrant being up the anti-gun sentiment again. NOT! I'll wait until the harvest results are in before I break out the tissue paper. And as a side note, it would seem that the highly touted system of insta-check has already reaped more than it's fair share of questionable entries.

Indiana just completed a deer season which offered 45 potential days of firearm/ML pressure, 97 days of archery pressure and 97 days of crossbow pressure. All of that is EXCLUDING additional days for urban deer zones and several special hunts. Compare THAT to the states on our west...or our east borders.

We have a bonus county permit system that has never really worked (deer densities from one side of the county to the other vary greatly where I live)....and antlerless quotas that are beyond ridiculous.

EHD has become a household acronym over the past few years. Yes, the disease has been around forever, but the widespread run of reported EHD outbreaks in Indiana over the past 6-8 years has been unprecedented....at least in my lifetime.

The state continues to hand out deer depredation permits like candy at Halloween.

How anyone can look at that objectively and even remotely consider we may be headed down the right path is beyond me? Support the DNR? Why because they have biology degrees? What good is having a degree in biology when the bus is being driven by politicians...none of which have degrees in biology.

More recently, even their own customers are trumping DNR direction. Some of you guys preaching support for the DNR today are the same guys that used political pressure to kick the DNR in the teeth three years ago. You say "Trust the DNR?" The way I see it, that really says "Trust me." Based on some of the crap I read on this forum (and others)....well, I'll be nice and just say "No thanks!"

Seriously beginning to wonder why I even bother to care? I hear alot of guys complaining, but my situation is much different from most. If/when my situation changes...I will find another. Doesn't matter what species I'm hunting, you can bet there was alot of emphasis placed on finding the "right" place to hunt. Would save myself a ton of frustration if I would just concentrate on that....and forget about what's going on elsewhere. Must be the realist in me admitting that sooner or later...all of this BS is going to cause me grief....in one form or another.

I agree with this.

For me, it wasn't that the DNR wasn't trusted a few years ago as much as it was the fact that I, like many hunters felt they weren't being represented in the process and let the powers that be know it.

As far as the number of bonus antlerless permits available, I don't know of anyone that hasn't questioned those numbers @ times, but especially counties that were hit hard by EHD. Having said that, the county I hunt in was hit hard by EHD and I thought the permits should be lowered, but deer being deer, they repopulated the county pretty quickly.

Point being, while it may seem to some that the opposite is going on, I hardly think that the DNR is going to allow the herd to be slaughtered and I'm sure that if necessary, there will be counties that see their available bonus antler less permits drop subtantially, thus making the bonus antlerless season much smaller.

But in the end, Indiana is trying to do what many states are doing and that's lowering herd numbers and we're going to have to live with that.

Post of the Day.........

The ones that "get it" pav are behind you in other places than this and other Forums. The "Guardians of tactics displayed to get 2.0" .....their days are numbered. They had their brief moment in time to shine for "themselves".

Those days are over.........some of their "noise" is still present....and they are shaking in their boots as they know their "own kind" and their "own tactics" and their "own bed" .....is about to eat them.

It's all good that is coming..........

Exactly.

Here is what I don't get. The people who aren't effected by the regs and don't have much trouble getting their deer every year (pav, jb, dew) and a few others are the ones who basically say the same things. Our hunting is already pretty darn good. No matter what the dnr does it will stay that way. Maybe some should think about that a second. We have no vested interest. These ideas put forth would be for the benefit of those who don't have the same opportunities available. Most would love to have access to these managed properties but they don't want to hear how to get there.

That is why I became so frustrated and basically quit posting here but its been a cold couple weeks and Ive been stuck in the house so I started back again probably a mistake.

GREAT POST..

Here is also a quote from one of the state's GREAT outdoor writer from another forum...

..."I’m hearing rumors (unconfirmed as of yet) that the IDNR is going to drop antlerless limits, and back off of the depredation permits allowed in the future. I honestly believe our state’s aggressive antlerless policy has gotten the herd down to acceptable (and in some spots unacceptable, according to concerned hunters in those areas) levels. My personal opinion is that the IDNR has gotten the herds to proper levels in some areas and it’s probably time to back off a bit on antlerless harvests; at least for the next couple seasons. The good news is that whitetails are fast breeders and can re-populate areas very quickly. Recruitment should be good in areas where numbers have been knocked back (wether by EHD, or hunting)"....

Gonna comment on this..........

Since 1991 when I saw liberal doe permits becoming more liberal........I saw the writing on the wall. I saw nothing but FIGHTING coming to those that took deer hunting as a "few days/weeks" a year sport.....and had nothing more than intentions of quick flipping through the regs a week or a couple of days before season to see what their "limit" was...........and then head out to "take" what they could.

I knew they were the majority back then.......and knew they were going to be the majority that took us down an UGLY road.

I decided to do something different.

By 1995 I had talked to all the friends/family and farmers that were close friends to me.........and set aside/locked up/ and managed the ground as we all saw best to do. Believe it or not.......I have not "locked up" another piece of ground since 1995. Those 4 years I put those properties together was all I have....I stopped...I had enough here in Indiana. At first we got noticed very little.........under the radar.....deer were abundant everywhere.....but all of us involved knew what we were doing was about to get noticed.......as "outside" of our boundaries, things were getting very ugly.

So we started telling others face to face......and on Forums how to keep "Quantity and Quality" thriving. The reason we started talking is we knew our recipe could be duplicated EASILY......... VERY EASILY.......

What we weren't prepared for.........and our "learning curve" was to discover was that the "immediacy" for what we had, and lack of "investment" others were wanting to give to "get what we had" was astonishing. Just flat out astonishing. We found out that by looking a man in the face that deer hunts and using words like "shoot your limit, more weapons, who cares about your neighbor, there's plenty out there, etc, etc" .....they smiled often. We also found out that by looking a man in the face that deer hunts and using words like "restraint, pass that buck, take just what you need, set a limit and stick to it, leave some for next year, IDNR limit quotas don't have to be your limit quotas, etc, etc, etc" ......they frowned often. But they smiled often at our results......but knew to get there they were going to have to adhere to words that made them "frown".

..........and the Majority stuck with the words/tactics that the made them "smile in the moment".......cause words and tactics that had to do with investment was just too difficult or foreign to them.........until it SLAPPED them in the face. And then guess what happens..........they then want to BUTCHER the ones that tried to help them see ahead. The pav's, the Joe's, the Dew's......Butcher them!!! It's easier to throw eggs at those who demonstrate how to get there, and talk freely about HOW to get there with good plans, and show results how to get there in the face of "disaster all around them"..........than to listen.

But guess what........I know that this all will come full circle. I'm used to walking around with knives in my back and knives in my face....you just get numb to it after awhile.....and you "consider the source"........and you know that slowly but surely you make a difference to a few....and you then get to see those few you've influenced turn around and influence a few..........and the next thing ya' know..........you have MANY!!

The sad part of all of this is seeing the effort hunters make to shoot themselves in the foot in the name of "instant gratification this year"........and the effort they make to ignore/demonize those that reflect what they want most.

My hope is that every one of you that want what I have.........gets it.........works for it.........tells the IDNR they want it.....and apply all those words and effort that make it hard for a bit........... because the HARD is what makes it GREAT.

..........I'll keep reminding ya'll of that.

Good post Cody.

Very good read ! I have always like Bill's articles and his show is one of the better ones....

The time frame he mentions coincides with what I have seen around me and the 17 years I have hunted the lease....The late 90's were good, and the best was around 2003/4/5/6 then like the DNR wanted, we started killing off the Does and I learned the hard way...deer numbers dropped of course and mature buck sightings all but disappeared...by the time we realized what was happening it was to late...combine that with CRP disappearing, fence lines bulldozed under and now there was some guy in every woodlot popping Does and shooting buttons and 1.5 yr olds the decline was well under way.... it has happened on the two local F&W areas too....things have got to change and do it fast....both in the DNR and the hunter mind set....

Sounds to me like your jealous. Proof is in the puddin..you see what hes knockin down every year? Managing deer for quality and quanity is as simple as he makes it out to be as i used to have a similar situation (property was sold to a lucky rich guy) where my group and the surrounding property owners were killing monsters every year. sorry shooter that you cant see whats coming and need the dnr to hold your hand. poor lil fella. another 3 years with this so called "management program" would be devastating. i honestly feel sorry for the deer..they dont stand a chance unless we make some serious changes and do so asap

you can't be serious

we are just going to wipe them out?

In some areas I believe the numbers are already down 60-70%.... North Porter County for one (north of US 30) ....

It should not be overlooked that the deer herd grew in numbers and prospered very well in numbers basically under the current season structures, except for the recently added antlerless week. The obvious major difference was/is access to tags for antlerless deer. Without any other changes except the elimination of the antlerless week, the deer herd can recover reasonably quickly.

Most of Porter County north of 30 is pretty urban so yeah I wouldn't expect to see to many deer up there...

And it is only going to get worse as urban sprawl keeps encroaching into whats left of the "rural" parts of Porter County...

Yep....If the herd needs to be eased up on, there are tools in place to do so (without having to change one reg).

Working for the IDNR for the last few years must make those folks feel like coaches when they have to take calls from fans who want to try and tell them how to run their teams.....

.....and how to throw out their "best play" and "first choice" they wanted to run called Prop 1.0.....

Man do you people have nothing better to do?????


Go outside !!!

Been outside all day runnin' feeders and winter cams.....giving back to wildlife. Will put up some pics later. Felt good to slush through melting snow to find feeder areas tore up with deer and turkey tracks

GD....I will when I start hunting 'yotes mid week.....

+1...

Bump.......good read for those currently giving feedback to our IDNR......

I really believe EHD has had a profound effect on the herd. I believe that the hot dry summers cause deer to congregate around what little water they can find and make themselves more vulnerable to getting bitten by the midge.

My buddies who put out mineral licks, feeders etc... have quit doing it once it gets warm for fear that they are causing the deer to congregate. Makes sense to me.

I think there are times when we think we are doing the deer herd good when perhaps we should just let nature take it's course.....

I have had a feeder out with corn and beans for a week and a half and the only thing that is using it is birds.

I've got a feeling that EHD will not be a big problem this year with all the snow and cold temps we have been having... You might have a few cases here or there but but it shouldn't be anywhere like it has been the past few years...

A guy at work read in the Farmers Almanac that this season's crop growing will be the best it has been in 30 years...

I know you would love to be just like Ohio, But I work in Ohio and there is nothing but bitching about there gun and Muzzle Loader Season, They would love to have the same dates and number of gun days as Indiana does.Also there are several articles in Ohio Publications about there deer numbers and harvest numbers being way to Low. Look around you'll find the articles!

If that is TRULY the case fowlattitude.........be my guest to make a post on the largest Ohio Deer Hunting Forum, Ohiosportsman.com, and ask them if they want 30+ days to deer hunt in Ohio with a gun during the rut.....and be like Indiana's gun season.

Go ahead..........try to prove your point.......it ain't gonna be pretty for you over there. Put up a post like that......come tell us what happens to you as your ideas about "they would love Indiana's season and lengths for gun" get lynched.

It has totally nothing to do with me Dew,And as for me getting lynched I could give a rats azz if that happens or not, I'm not a trouble maker in any way, shape or form, Look how long i've been here and look at how many post i've made and i'm here checking the board everyday since the day I joined this forum,I could care less what Ohio does, I don't hunt Ohio,and If I did I wouldn't waiste my time during Gun Season But i'm telling you the gods truth, I hear it year after year, They would love to have more gun days.